rust and penetrating oils

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev!

If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?

(I thought it was funny at first, too.)

You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?

Anybody?

I guess I'm out of step without a beard.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?

It's a scientific journal in the same ironic way as 'Mad Magazine' is a news magazine. Scientists enjoy humor, too, which is why that "journal" exists.

You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?

Nope. I don't want to be responsible for triggering a discussion of pyramids, energy vortices, UFOs, radiation from cell phones, or mystical substances like CP90...

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev!

Please forgive me for exposing your crippling lack of a sense of humour.
I was callous and crude.

But the phenomenon of razor blades regaining sharpness is real, and has real applications in the vintage motorcycle industry.

No joke.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

your crippling lack of a sense of humour.

A dull razor blade is no laughing matter...

[T. Cotten]

The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

I wonder if John Deere ever figured that one out with his plow blades. ... Cotten, really?
although, file-sharpening could be considered an appropriate subject, and perhaps a similar (to razors) characteristic is at play.
I'm all "ears" to your comments, no slights intended. ...... if I want slights I'll summon up sarge, maybe.

[T. Cotten]

Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?
I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind.

[fillibuster]

Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?

.(...I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind.

))

I would not advise standing behind a manure spreader, but they built them anyway.

Interesting on the razors, Cotten, but what about those files? We do use files (a lot), don't we?
I've seen them immersed in water for sharpening, but was never taught what is happening there.

[BoschZEV]

Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life",
The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong. Except it took less time to do the measurements than it's going to take to type this post.

I carry Gillette Mach 3 in my traveling shaving kit. These blades come in a plastic case with 6 slots and 5 cartridges, with old cartridges dropped into an empty slot as the next new one is retrieved. Because on average I only use this razor a couple of times/month it is a long time between cartridges. However, last summer I spent a long time overseas so I know the most recent old cartridge has been there since July, while the oldest one is at least several years old. They've had plenty of time to "heal" themselves, and it only took a few minutes to place these, and a new one, in my metallurgical microscope.

The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification of my Zeiss microscope, which resolves ~0.5 microns. Unfortunately, my microscope isn't open-minded enough to find the effect T. Cotten claims. The microscope simply reports exactly what it sees. The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification, while the two used blades are indistinguishable from each other with chips in their edges of many microns in size. These blades haven't gone bad because metal was somehow displaced, they've gone bad because metal is missing. In order to heal themselves it would require them to have a "memory" of where the metal used to be, and then for them to grow new metal there. Obviously, this is impossible.

There is an alternative explanation, but it would require assuming the steel in T. Cotten's razor blades is both less brittle and has a lower yield strength than in mine, and that his whiskers have become stronger than steel as a result of his years' of dumpster diving. But, absent evidence to the contrary, I'm going with the simpler explanation, i.e. that he has fooled himself when reporting his old blades work better after sitting for a few months.

But, this nicely illustrates an important point relevant to this thread on penetrating oils. T. Cotten believes his razor blades heal themselves, and as a result he offers his personal observation that he gets a better shave from them after letting them rest a couple of months. Ricmoran believes CP90 works better than other penetrating oils to loosen fasteners, and as a result he offers his personal observation the stuff works despite not having any chemical in it that dissolves rust. The lesson to take from this is that where personal observation is contradicted by known science, you should go with the known science over personal testamonials.

[T. Cotten]

Filibuster!

Files are commonly sharpened by blasting with ALOX, or etching with muriatic acid.

Or both if it is a useful bastard.

....Cotten

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev wrote: "There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong."

Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?
Anyone with a vintage motorcycle that does not use any?

Thanks in advance,

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?

I've heard of lots of things, including springs, but a microscope showed that my razor blades didn't fail because they were sprung springs that were able to unsprung themselves.

[BoschZEV]

p.s. I searched an academic database for technical articles or book chapters on the wear mechanisms for razor blades. Trying to filter out hits from non-technical magazines almost certainly eliminated relevant technical material as well, and I would have to go to the library to read the actual articles. But, the on-line abstract of one that appeared in the Proceedings of the 25th Annual Conference on Composites, Advanced Ceramics, Materials, and Structures succinctly describes how the razor blades they tested wear:

Blade wear occurred by the formation of edge chips

Since missing chips can't heal themselves, the "improvement" T. Cotten reported that he felt with his used razor after letting it rest for six weeks was psychological. However, it will be better if he continues to believe in healing because if he accepts the scientific evidence he will have to spend money on new blades. It will be cheaper if he denies the science.

[T. Cotten]

Please consider for a minute, Folks,..

Chipping an edge requires either hitting a very hard object, or embrittlement from work-hardening.

Work-hardening is of course, part of the process of producing an edge, and intrinsic to the stropping process.
If the palm of the hand can be a strop, the face is not that different.

Just like breaking a steel wire by bending it repeatedly until micro-cracks oxidize so the metal no longer has affinity with itself, a precise edge that has rolled and sprung back is going to eventually fatigue, and repeats accelerate it.

I never said the edges were immortal, just that there was little reason to toss them before they were actually exhausted.
Like a motorcycle, there is little economy in discarding them before their time.

Little is lost by experimenting.
Unless you fear it will shake the foundations of your faith.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

Little is lost by experimenting.
Unless you fear it will shake the foundations of your faith.

I disagree on both counts. The information I posted has nothing to do with faith, and time is lost by doing experiments for which the answers are already known.

I've lost as much time on razor blades as I care to so the floor is now all yours to continue this as a monologue if you wish.