rust and penetrating oils

[rdillon]

Where can you buy a small quantity of the CP-90? I am in VA. Just did a quick search, no help. Thanks, Randy

[T. Cotten]

There's a time and place for everything, Folks,..

And for most weather'd scroungings, I rely upon bees'wax from a toilet seal ring, and a low flame.

Must save the Kroil for the customers.

....Cotten

[rwm]

sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

[fillibuster]

sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

A couple of weeks ago the little mate told me she submerged an old rusted up pliers in WHITE VINEGAR. Next day she pulled them out, the rust was gone, and they worked freely. ..... Last week I finally tried for myself, a crescent wrench, and a similar adjustable wrench with the "magic word" on it, both subjects having been rusted or "frozen" long ago and had resisted my attempts at free-ing with vice grips on the knurled turn screw while tool was gripped in the vice. I submerged them in a peanut butter jar full of the vinegar I had intended to clean my coffee pot with. A day later, in front of 2 good friends as witnesses, I had them both freed up with only a little movement from the vice grip.

So next time you clean your coffee pot, save that stuff for something "frozen". And when you little mate tells you of an old woman's remedy, .. try it.

[billpedalino]

Ricmoran,

As an American of strong Queens, N.Y./ italian heritage, I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!

If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...

[BoschZEV]

I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!
If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...

I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.

[ricmoran]

I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.

BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.

From what you wrote: I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?

You wrote - If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we (I don't use it as you'll discover why if you read on) know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "[B]mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons." & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"[/B]

Further, what you wrote of the "proprietary ingredient" that breaks rust, KROIL is not the only product out there with a formulation as Cp-90 has their proprietary ingredients as your now are aware of.

Further, review of hazards in KROIL I know I don't want it in my shop as I have too many VOC chemicals already. CarWell lists nothing in hazardous ingredients.

KROIL at 150° for flash point, you might as well use kerosene, auto trans fluid and maybe xylene or toluene.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with you using KROIL, but not for me.

After near 2 decades of having heard people who spin wrenches every day of the week who tried & then went on to continually use CarWell, their favorite words are "never seen anything like it"

Tonight is Lasagna!!

[BoschZEV]

BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.
... & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"[

I realize you sell the stuff, but that doesn't change the fact the MSDS says it is a proprietary mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons. Unlike Kroil, the MSDS does not say the CP90 has any proprietary ingredients at all, only that the mixture of hydrocarbons is proprietary. A film of hydrocarbons helps prevent rust from forming, but it doesn't dissolve rust that is already there.

Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?

The reason not to bother is the ingredients listed in the MSDS don't give me a reason to bother. If a chemical test shows a swimming pool needs chlorine and an acid salesman says to use his product instead, it would be a sign of foolishness, not an open mind, to use the acid.

[sirhrmechanic]

I prefer Occam's Razor.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[ricmoran]

Fine BoschZEV, please.describe how pizza tastes or the color blue to a blind person. Bottom line is without testing your reaching into the bottom of a paper bag without retrieving anything that actually proves the differences of what not only these products do but also others that may work as well.

Regarding selling something to anyone, have not done that for some time now as I am out of the business. Simply providing information on a product that has provided success in aiding shop repair as well as preservation.

Anyone that wants the product gets it from the manufacturer and there is nothing in it for me. From experience, the best education comes ffrom those who provide insight to something where either success or failure from use happens. It then is up to an individual to decide for themselves and with that simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.

CarWell has been around a long time, with or without your business which is not my concern, they will continue producing a product that works.

[T. Cotten]

Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

...simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.

Sorry, but that's just not true. The nice thing about understanding chemistry is that it allows claims about chemicals to be accurately evaluated without having to waste time and money. I haven't discounted anything out of hand, I've discounted it based on science.

There are people who make all sorts of claims that are countradicted by scientific knowledge (e.g. that dowsing rods find water, that oiji boards allow communication with the dead, that copper bracelets cure arthritis, that magnets in the shoes help circulation, etc.). Many of the people making these claims could be quite sincere about their beliefs, and may think they are validated by practical experience. However, despite this, discounting claims like these isn't discounting them out of hand, it's discounting them based on science. Sugar pills (placebos) certainly make some people feel better, but if I'm sick I want to be given pills that have been scientifically proven to cure whatever it is I have. It is neither foolish nor short sighted to avoid knowingly taking a placebo even though it might be endorsed by someone with "practical experience" with it and who mistakenly thinks it works better than a proper drug.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are other products on the market that work as well as Kroil, and possibily even better. If there is such a product, I would like to know about it because I definitely would use it instead of Kroil. However, knowledge of chemistry is sufficient to know not to spend my money on ones that contain only petroleum-based hydrocarbons, such as CP90. Chemistry tells us they will lubricate and protect against additional rust, but they won't dissolve rust that already has formed.

[fillibuster]

Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

Winner-winner, chicken dinner! What's it look like after treatment, Cotten? (that isn't after, is it?)

My vinegar didn't finish the job on the old wrenches. I had to cheat. Used heat.
But I got it.

[T. Cotten]

Uhmmm,.. BoschZEV!

I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.

As far as your mystical examples, it is only a contemporary short-coming of Science to explain them inadequately. Like "Pyramid Power" was credited with sharpening razor blades, they actually can and do regain sharpness, even though the pyramid fancy has nothing to do with it. But without the fancy, the phenomenon is ignored by the dogmatic, and common knowledge of the past lost to the following generations.

Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.

Thus I choose the most effective penetrating lubricant with the least chemical action, non-toxic, bio-degradeable, and.... "Period Correct"!

...Cotten
"There is nothing more un-scientific than a mind blinded by science"... Hoosed Datwun

PS: Filibuster!
Sadly, it ended up looking just like any other "restoration".

[BoschZEV]

I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.

Absolutely. But, an essential aspect is it has to be reproducible. If it isn't reproducible, then there are "hidden variables" involved in the phenomenon that you haven't understood as yet. Further, and very important, once a phenomenon has been observed and completely understood (such as how to dissolve iron oxide without attacking the underlieing iron) subsequent people don't have to waste their time repeating experiments. Instead, they can and should spend their time building on the base of scientific knowledge. That's how and why scientific knowledge advances.

Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.

It's not always desireable, but it often is. The rusty patina on the outside of a gas tank of a 1910 Indian likely should be left in place (but stopped from advancing further, if at all possible), while the rust on the bolts that are keeping you from rebuilding a 1960 BSA engine likely should be removed. However, it should be removed in a way that only removes the rust and doesn't remove any of the metal. Thanks to chemicals like ones that are in Kroil, that is possible to do.