Attracting younger people

[Keith Kizer]

Steve, (chuckthebeater)

As most regulars on the forum know, I rarely post. When I do, it's important news or obituaries. But you left me no choice. I'm sorry I have to call BS on most of your comments. I base this on the fact that you invoked my personal name in three post in this string which I know are complete lies.

First, you claim I have brushed you off over a dozen times. The first and only time we ever communicated was in a single email thread between May and June, 2019. You wrote me with two great ideas offering to write some pro Sportster / K Model stories for our website and help you promote a $10k bike build online. My exact response was, "So, in two words, "I'm IN. I love your ideas and will do everything possible to help promote your ideas". I explained a backdoor way to reach me if I don't immediately respond to your email. I made a note to look for you at Wauseon. That was four years ago, but my records do not indicate that we spoke. You also never replied to my last email or to take me up on my offer to help promote your event or post your stories.

Second, you claim I am "the worst person you have ever met." We have never met and if we did, it would have been at the AMCA booth at the busiest meet on the schedule, Wauseon. There is little time to carry on meaningful conversations. If I'm the worst, I'm having a harder time believing your numerous post calling every AMCA member you ever met as terrible people. In referring to me you said, "he told me he was way too busy, and his busy was having a beer with some chapter pres ten feet away." If you knew me at all you would know that I've never touched a drop of alcohol in my life. And you for sure never saw me sitting in a chair gabbing. I'm there to work, not play.

Third, you then had the audacity to accuse me of collaborating with whoever stuffed paper towels down your gas tank. Ball face lies. It makes me question every single word you wrote. We have rules on the forum against saying bad things about other people, even if they are true. In this case you are calling out the entire AMCA and its members. I asked our moderator to leave this string up because of the members who actually know what the club is about are willing to defend it.

If you and your wife indeed had a bad experience at a road run, I am truly sorry but that had to be limited to one individual, not everyone in attendance like you make it sound. I'm in the book, I would be happy to have a phone conversation with you anytime you want to vent, but please quit spreading lies about me, the board and our members.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Much like your offer to talk. . . you too could have picked up a phone.

Instead of privately asking me to clarify and then revise, you went nuclear on our forum, right down to reminding us you have the power to tell Mike Love what to take down.

Thanks for proving my point.

PS, did it ever occur to you i may have baited you because of my frustration?

[PRG]

The hardest working man in show business, I can personally attest to never having seen Keith drink a beer…..but he’s certainly witnessed me down more than my fair share.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Before this gets out of hand . . . let's clarify.


Keith; you are 100% right, we did not connect at Wauseon 2019. I tried three times at that meet to connect with you -- three more times at Wauseon 2022. I did introduce myself to you and asked to talk at 2022; you asked me to come back later because you were busy with club stuff. I did -- you were always busy with someone else. So that you can verify my story -- please check the member log from the meet -- you will see that you personally took a three year membership for me and my wife at the Wauseon meet. I didn't have my membership card and you looked me up and even mentioned you remembered me. That's when I asked if we could finally connect . . .and you said later when you weren't so busy. I get that, so when I came back, I stood for several minutes in your sight line waiting to speak to you -- you did not acknowledge me. So I waited a respectful amount of time and then came back later for another try.

When you make eye contact with a person who keeps coming back and not acknowledging them; I consider that a brush off. You may simply not have totally connected the dots in your mind because you were busy. That's also a valid perspective. In any case, by my count -- that's half a dozen tries right there. I also tried in previous years and by my count, it rounds up to a dozen tries. I've tried to connect via text, email, and in person. I consider that being brushed off -- you seem to have a different opinion. OK, we can agree to disagree.


All that said, I DO owe you an apology. You are 100% right, I did not see you drink a beer or with a beer in your hand. What I saw was you say "I'm headed to see someone" and the someone was in a circle of drinkers 10 feet away. I assumed you were hoisting one and I publicly apologize for this mistake.

Finally, I am sorry you read my paper towel story as implying you were a culprit. I did not mean to imply you had anything to do with it and sorry it was read that way. To anyone reading this: Keith had nothing to do with the paper towel incident and had no knowledge of it.


Keith -- if you want me to revise ANY of these things you believe I have defamed you on -- then I will. If you'd prefer they just stand and folks can read and decide for themselves -- I'm fine with that too.

I stand by my statements concerning my experience as an under 50 and how these less than stellar encounters sour the experience.

I do not believe all AMCA members are jerks and I am not calling out all AMCA members.

I believe we have more jerks and cliques than we are willing to admit.

I know jerks and cliques are big turn offs to my age group as are power dynamics.

I also know I hit a deep nerve here.

[T. Cotten]

So, How does a jerk find a clique, Folks?

(Askin' for a friend...)

....Cotten

[PRG]

As a hardened failed product of the Catholic school system where every child was left behind I’ll never qualify for a sensitivity award. On the other hand, as a former engineer my mantra was always, I am the solution. If I’d experienced confounding marginalization in any situation to the degree and frequency described here I’d be inclined to ask myself, maybe it’s me. From the gentility of 40 years in corporate board rooms and membership in the Porsche Club of America, among other similar experiences, it to took no time to grasp the gritty undercurrent of involvement in antique motorcycles. We ain’t sitting around fondling our faberge egg collection here while listening to opera, this endeavor attracts a bit more rugged crowd with behavioral patterns to suit which are are pretty much apart from any connection to age. I loathe the day the AMCA would officially adapt the dainty PCA expression of ‘it’s not about the cars, it’s the people.’ Ruefully, after 30 years of the AMCA it really has become about the people, it’s just most are too manly to admit it. I adapted to fit into this occasionally gruff arena, but it isn’t for everyone.

[D.A.Bagin]

Boy, I never expected this thread I started back in 2015 to evolve into a popcorn eating entertainment center. I thought about throwing my 5 bucks, (Inflation) worth into it but it would take way too much time. I will say in the short version that it took a little bit of thick skin and determination to eventually get to know people but in the end it was worth it. This was in 89-91 when I first joined. I was in my mid 30s. Personally I don't give a rat's ass what people think of the junk I ride. I never had anyone try to or damage anything I have while at a meet. The only instance I had was at a 4 meet where someone was moving my 4 out of the way so he could get a picture of his buddy's bike for the magazine. I had a shitty kickstand and it was on sandy soil so it had a great possibility of laying over when he walked away. He won't do that again. I really don't understand that people figure they can just put their hands on your stuff anytime they want because of who they are. I have never witnessed or heard of some of the instances Chuck is referring to. I am not saying they didn't happen but I never have seen any of it.

[BoschZEV]

Returning to the scene of the crime, i.e. the original subject of the thread, this past weekend I gave the after-dinner talk at the annual banquet of the Oregon Vintage Motorcyclists club. The room was a sea of approximately 80 grey heads, and one of the questions after my talk was about how to get younger people involved. It's not like this is the first time I've been asked such a question, so I've had years to think of a good answer. Despite that, I don't have a good answer.

To digress for a moment to a point made in someone else's post, some years ago my younger daughter and I had ridden our Ducatis to the top of a nearby mountain to have lunch. A grey-haired man left the restaurant at the same time we did and, on the walk to the parking lot, took it upon himself to mainsplain to my daughter how great motorcycles are, that she should learn to ride one herself, she shouldn't be afraid of them, etc. etc. etc. My daughter politely didn't say anything the entire time, but when we got to the two Ducatis and he realized she was a rider, not a passenger, he quietly slinked off to his car. There's no doubt he had the best of intentions but, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If not paying any attention to potential young motorcyclists isn't the answer, but neither is unsolicited mainsplaining, what might be an answer, if only a partial answer? Some of you may know that I was co-curator of the Guggenheim's 'The Art of the Motorcycle" twenty-five years ago, as well as of Brisbane's Museum of Modern Art "The Motorcycle: Design, Art, Desire" two years ago. The former had 300,000 visitors in New York, and 2M in all four of the venues, and the latter had 110,000 despite being held in the middle of a global pandemic when travel between Australian states was prohibited most of the time, and the drawbridge to the outside world was totally pulled up. As shown in the next photograph, press clippings for just the New York venue filled 500 pages.

aNY_pressclippings.jpg

If readers of the countless publications represented by the clippings book weren't interested in motorcycles, the writers and editors of those newspapers and magazines wouldn't have written those stories. Perhaps more graphically, the next photograph shows the queue on opening day in Brisbane. Close inspection shows a uniform mix of men, women, boys and girls, with only a few glimpses of men with grey hair.

eAU_IMG_9267.jpg

Some of the posts in this thread say the younger generation isn't interested in motorcycles. However, as the photograph shows better than words can, that is demonstrably false. On our Cannonball stops in 2018, entire families turned out to see the circus that had arrived in town. The excitement of the young kids, and the interest of the spouses, many of whom likely weren't motorcyclists themselves, was palpable. The evening public lectures I've given on "The Art and Science of Motorcycles" have filled 500-person auditoriums with diverse crowds. Younger people are interested if motorcycles are presented to them in the right way. The "right way" doesn't only have to be exhibitions at major international museums, but it certainly has to be more than hoping random victims will wander onto a muddy fairground and spontaneously fall in love with motorcycles despite grizzled grey-haired old men either ignoring them, or talking down to them.

An example of what the AMCA could very easily do are scheduled tours of AMCA meets, with times and content advertised ahead of time in the local newspaper, Facebook, Instagram, etc., and conducted by appropriate AMCA members who have the necessary personal skills. The appropriate AMCA member isn't necessarily the person who knows the most about old motorcycles, it's the person who is best at communicating to an audience of interested non-motorcyclists.

[exeric]

The major youth wave of new motorcyclist in the mid-1960s was largely due to biker movies, and anti-social bike gang behavior. A confluence of social change, new music, a devisive war, a red hot economy, etc, etc, etc. made riding motorcycles the perfect way to give society the finger. When I joined the AMCA in the '70s, the young people like myself were mostly the products of '60s culture and were quite different than the middle age old guard that carried the AMCA banners. Regardless of the age difference, everyone got along quite well because it was old motorcycles that we all loved. Keep in mind that in 1975 a 1947 Knucklehead was only 28 years old but looked antique. I don't know if you can say that about many of the bikes that are now considered antiques. Of course, that is a value judgement and times (with opinions) change but the marketplace says a '47 knuck is a lot more desirable than a '75 Yamaha. As it is now, rich people, and early birds got most of the good stuff and that leaves young people out in the cold. That is the reality. . . . Alternatives? I have no idea but youth has always met the challenge. As for old members talking down, or ignoring young members; I call B.S. There are no doubt grizzled old members that do that, but that's just a jerk, not typical of the overwhelming majority of older members that keep this great club running, and care about new members.

[BoschZEV]

As for old members talking down, or ignoring young members; I call B.S. There are no doubt grizzled old members that do that, but that's just a jerk, not typical of the overwhelming majority of older members that keep this great club running, and care about new members.

That behavior is typical of every group of people who have known others in the group for years. It's comfortable to talk to people you already know, and uncomfortable to talk to people you don't already know. To say the AMCA is somehow different is to believe what you wish were true, not what is actually true. Luckily, it doesn't require everyone, or even a majority, to be friendly and accommodating. If only 10% of the members actively looked for, sought out, and engaged with new people, it would make a significant difference.

[exeric]

. If only 10% of the members actively looked for, sought out, and engaged with new people, it would make a significant difference.

That's not the world we live in. In my experience, people are shy, or hesitant to initiate a relationship with strangers, and people who do are initially suspect of ulterior motives, which may explain why new, and old members are hesitant to mix. Outgoing personalities don't understand that. As I have stated many times, you can't make someone love old motorcycles, or join the AMCA. I believe it is up to young, interested people to seek out knowledge for themselves, hence they should initiate the learning process (as personally uncomfortable as that may be for them). What you suggest is like getting ambushed by an aggressive insurance agent selling life insurance and that could also chase away a potential member.

[BoschZEV]

That's not the world we live in.… I believe it is up to young, interested people to seek out knowledge for themselves, hence they should initiate the learning process

Our observations of the world we live in are different. Continuing not to do anything different to address the fact young people aren't joining the AMCA at a rate that is needed to sustain the club long term isn't going to solve the problem. Your "solution" would be to continue doing what we know very well does not work.

What you suggest is like getting ambushed by an aggressive insurance agent selling life insurance and that could also chase away a potential member.

That's not at all what I suggested. That's why I wrote "appropriate AMCA members who have the necessary personal skills."

You wrote:

which may explain why new, and old members are hesitant to mix.

But in your previous post you wrote:

As for old members talking down, or ignoring young members; I call B.S. There are no doubt grizzled old members that do that, but that's just a jerk, not typical of the overwhelming majority of older members that keep this great club running, and care about new members.

So, which is it, old members are hesitant to mix with new ones, or it's BS to say old members ignore new members?

My point isn't to pick apart your words, it's to say there are reasonable alternatives to try that might have a better chance of attracting younger members than continuing to do what the AMCA has done about this for years, i.e. essentially nothing. When you have a serious problem and one potential solution doesn't work, try another potential solution that has no obvious reason why it wouldn't work.

[Steve Swan]

there were jerks and cliques in the early 1980's when i was a young member. I know this from firsthand experience how i was treated by 3 different revered lifetime members, one surviving still surfing on a banana peel swirling the drain. Human nature does not change, idol worship never ceases, and denial is not a river in Egypt.

[exeric]

We still live in a (somewhat) free country so give it a try. I'm sure it will work for some people. In my time in the AMCA, and meeting strangers (via a vintage motorcycle as the lure) I have tried to encourage membership in the AMCA, and general acquaintanceship over a common interest. That has worked a few times. Usually the other person will listen for a moment then launches into a 'true' story about their uncle who has a 1955 Indian, made by Harley that will do 159 mph on the interstate. Oh yeah, and his uncle had an offer from a Japanese collector of a $180K. Sounds silly but that happens a lot with varying degrees of exaggeration. .

I don't mind a pedantic response to my posts as I often generalize and skip the details but when talking about a club like the AMCA, with thousands of members, from every walk of life, experience, and personality; generality is the only way to quantify it. If more AMCA members would participate on this great forum, we could get a lot more info on how members feel about this. But, that's a moot point, or should I say mute.

[BoschZEV]

I don't mind a pedantic response to my posts ...

There's no reason to be insulting.

If more AMCA members would participate on this great forum,

Not wanting to subject themselves to insulting comments could be a factor in keeping some people from participating.