Vin nmber discussions

[billpedalino]

If a restored machine entered into judging is found to have replacement cases it is gigged. It did not leave the factory with replacement cases. This happened to Bruce Palmer III with a restored WLA.

What is 'gigged'? Disqualified?

[billpedalino]

Bagin,

I would question that story. In New York, it is my understanding that if the numbers, belly or VIN, are proven to be altered, that is only the first step of the legal process ending in auctioning of the machine.

As I understand it, the second step would be to recover/identify the original numbers so that the machine can be returned to its rightfull Owner. However, in absence of that ability, in order for the machine to be ultimately auctioned off, the enforcement agency must prove that, not only are the numbers altered, but that the Owner actually performed the alteration and that he performed this crime. That gives legal right to long-term ceasure of the machine. If the Owner is not found to be the perpertrator of the alteration or the knowing recipient of stolen property, the macine then (eventually) receives a N.Y. State tag and is returned to the current Owner. I'm sure there are many more steps to this process, including 'Lawer' steps, but that is my understanding.

If anyone has more accurate NY information, please correct the above.

[billpedalino]

Chris,

Great story about Mr. Noel.....

[bmh]

But don't bring it to Illinois!

(Or CA, etc., etc.)

Fudged numbers are fudged numbers, and two wrongs do not make a right.
It might not be "stolen" in our minds, but the next generation will be robbed of the heritage we supposedly are trying to preserve, just as the previous generations robbed us with their casual stamping.

....Cotten

Very true indeed sir!

And what other reason is there to obliterate or alter a VIN on a good case other than theft???? How can some folks profess to tell how long ago the alteration was done? Sorry stolen is stolen.

[bobphd]

Brian, Here are a couple of reasons. 1940 and 1941 left crankcases were prone to crack in the vin no. area. Almost all of them did this to some extent. There are also many other reasons for left crancase damage which could require extensive repair or a replacement case. Years ago before the title services that are available now it could be very difficult to get a title for a perfectly legit bike that simply did not have a title. There were many instances were another title was simply used. None of this is perfect but that is just the way it is.

As far as bikes being confiscated as in the above stories this is the same as theft no matter if law enforcement is doing the stealing. It is our responsibility as Americans to take whatever actions nessessary to prevent this type of theft and hold those responsible no matter who they are.

Bob

[Robert Luland]

I was just up in Albany N.Y. promoting the club and the Rhinebeck meet and had a gentleman tell me his tale of woe. As I recall he was trailering 2 bikes in an enclosed trailer up to the Harley Rendezvous and got pulled over in a rest area roadblock. The officer, in his opinion, said his belly # looked su****ious. Not the vin. The belly matched the vin. Seized the bikes, both of them, acid tested, and didn't find conclusive evidence as to the validity. This person said the officer never called harley to cross check the belly with the vins. They then never contacted the owner and woundn't give any info on his bikes to him and auctioned them off. He is now out 2 bikes and can't afford to pay an attorney to attempt to sue the state. I don't know how accurate this is but this was his story.

Dave, I got to question that story. This year makes my 26 year at the Vouz and I have never seen a check point at any Hot Shop (Remember them?) along the Thruway. I have seen them many times within a half a mile from the gate. Never had a hassle as long is your paper work is in hand. Then again, I can’t remember ever seeing an officer look at someone’s numbers. There was an incident about five years ago. State Police entered the grounds because someone had a heart attack. While the heat was inside, someone went out to the road and removed their license plates. To say the least, they weren’t happy and everybody paid the price upon leaving Sunday morning. Bob L

[billpedalino]

And how did the officer read the belly numbers with the motor in the bike and the skid plate in place?? Seem like there's more to this story...

[Chris Haynes]

In the early '70's I stood in the shop of a H-D dealer in St Louis, Mo. I watched a mechanic remove an engine from a police motorcycle. Place it on the bench next to another engine. He transfered the number from the freshly removed engine onto the other one. When I questioned him doing that he said that the police want their bikes back fast and this is how it was always done.
So then imagine that, that bike gets sold to the general public. 10 years later a LEO spots the altered numbers. What then?

[Chris Haynes]

And how did the officer read the belly numbers with the motor in the bike and the skid plate in place?? Seem like there's more to this story...

It is not difficult to read bottom numbers on a H-D Big Twin. Especially on a restored machine that is clean on the underside.

[exeric]

It's good to know that if a knucklehead motor with bogus #'s comes into the possession of one of you nobel citizens; you will do the right thing and destroy it.

[Robert Luland]

Eric, if that don't give you that warm fuzzy feeling! A pisserr you are! LOL Bob L

[Chris Haynes]

It's good to know that if a knucklehead motor with bogus #'s comes into the possession of one of you nobel citizens; you will do the right thing and destroy it.

Nothing with an altered number will ever be in my shop. I won't risk losing everything I own over something that may or may not be stolen. Besides in CA it is illegal to posess anything with an altered manufacturers number on it.

[exeric]

I'm not trying to bust your stones Chris, it's just that much of this illegal number stuff was perpetrated back in the bad old 60's and 70's and now serious minded and honest restorers are trying to resurect this very valuable history. I'm not saying there aren't crooks working this stuff today, but most people in the know are well aware of bogus #'s but find themselves (through honest circumstances) sitting on something that was felonized 40 years ago. I think what people would really like to know is; what are their options?

[Chris Haynes]

I think what people would really like to know is; what are they're options?

That all depends on the LEO that discovers it. Worst case? Lose it and go to jail. Best case? The State assigns a new number. Or anything in between. Your results may vary.

[rwm]

how did the officer see inside the enclosed trailer?