Vin nmber discussions

[Jerry Wieland]

Am I the only one that finds these VIN number topics a bit one sided? I have been watching and partcipatiing in them since I first got on the internet. I regularly observe 4 sites and occasionally speak up on a couple. Not once - not even once have I ever seen a single reference to anything but HD's VIN - good or bad. The Indian speciality shop that I know about is still happily (and for real money I might add) turning out matching number Indians every day of the week and I hear nothing but good things said. When was the last time you saw 'Indian serial number stamps' offered for sale anywhere.

Just venting I guess.

Jerry

[bobphd]

Hi Jerry, There is a guy at Davenport the past couple of years selling Indian Stamps. He also is on the Bay. I read the number posts also and really am amazed at how some of them are viewed. We all know that unmolested vin no.s are the best and most desirable and valuable but common sense tells us that we are dealing with parts and machines that have been use and abused throughout the years. There are legit reasons for restamps and even though it might not be "legal" in the opinions of some that does not make it wrong in my opinion. As long as it is not done to cover a stolen machine and is done reasonably good I could care less. The most important part to me is ridability.
Bob

[Greg H]

Interesting & also an awkward subject Jerry,

Guess it goes on by equal amounts across brands, but most multi -make forums seem to have more H-D disscusion on most subjects to me anyway.
Not sure how in most cases how you could prove the machine to be never stolen, or does length of time cancel out that crime?

Coming in from a different angle, just imagine if Indian & H-D build records came to light! might be more upset than previous on the cards!
I`ve pondered why no one (AMCA inc) has ever bothered to do machine registers,to construct the historical build details from the survivors, on the face of it seems simple but most folk probably not willing to divulge that info these days.
The very info you require before making a purchase with your hard earned cash regarding vin fonts is the same required by some one wishing to decieve guess thats the main catch22
I know the Judges have font/year guide ref books so it has been documented.

Greg

[T. Cotten]

. There are legit reasons for restamps and even though it might not be "legal" in the opinions of some that does not make it wrong in my opinion. As long as it is not done to cover a stolen machine and is done reasonably good I could care less. The most important part to me is ridability.
Bob

A crime against History is a crime against us all.

Your attitude is more than just disappointing, Bob.

But it reflects AMCA policies nonetheless.

....Cotten

[bobphd]

Cotton, My attitude is to take these old machines and ride them like they were ment to be. What can be wrong with that. There are very few people that have rode these old motorcycles like I have. Just stateing my opinion. I base this on my first motorcycle a 1940 that had the typical crack in the left case across the vin no.s. It is fixed now and is a world record holder for the oldest mc to do 2000 + miles in 48 hours. I have owned this for 37 years and am proud of it. I wish that the crack had never occurred but understand that that is just the way it is. By the way this MC runs your peek seals.
Bob

[Chris Haynes]

I don't know about where you live but in CA it is a felony to alter any manufacturers identification number.

[Chuck#1848]

I don't know about where you live but in CA it is a felony to alter any manufacturers identification number.

Chris,
Same here in New York AND they run through the ringer when you try to register a motorcycle from another state

[koanes]

In my opinion, far greater the crime to destroy an engine case because of some questionable history. I've been fooling around with old motorcycles for over 30 years and spoke with many authorized Harley dealers that commonly retamped VIN on exchange motors. Was it legal everywhere for them to do this? I don't know. And of course many a used set of cases were restamped to replace badly damaged sets, often by the owner that bought a set of stamps at the hardware store. We so highly regard our old machines now with "correctness" being a major concern, but at that time nobody cared. I wasn't important that the motorcycle passed some rigorous technical inspection, only that it looked and ran well. Like Bob says, get on the damn thing and ride it.

[billpedalino]

I Agree with Koanes. I worked at a New York Harley Dealership way back when, owned by a recently departed and well-respected and VERY ethical and moral AMCA member. We owned a set of Harley stamps and used them whenever necesssary. However, due to the increasing theft problems of the mid 1960's and 1970's, he officially and with great fanfare, gave the stamps back to the Factory rep. during one of his visits. There are MANY, MANY, MANY re-stamped Harleys out there and in my neck of the woods re-stamps are at least as common as original numbers. I, for one would never discount owing a machine because the numbers looked slightly 'off'. If its been legally registered for the past 35 years, I'm buying it. If the club refuses to judge it, I'll live. In the words of a true clearic "Get on the damn thing and ride it".

[T. Cotten]

Like Bob says, get on the damn thing and ride it.

But don't bring it to Illinois!

(Or CA, etc., etc.)

Fudged numbers are fudged numbers, and two wrongs do not make a right.
It might not be "stolen" in our minds, but the next generation will be robbed of the heritage we supposedly are trying to preserve, just as the previous generations robbed us with their casual stamping.

....Cotten

[billpedalino]

I do not condone nofarious acts. However, let's be practical. For better or worse, the numbers in question have already been altered many, many years ago, for a variety of reasons and the affected machines have changed hands many times since the unfortunate deeds were performed.

In 1970 I purchased a BRAND NEW (really) set of Factory Knuckle cases with factory tag and blank number boss from an old time Harley mechanic that I worked with at that dealership. He was in his late 60's at the time, getting ready to retire and he was cleaning out his stuff. Unfortunately, I sold these cases to someone else (I was a dumb kid, I know) and I must assume that they were subsequently stamped and eventually used. This bike probably started life as a chopper (it was the early 1970's) and may now even be a 'restored' knucklehead. If now a restoration, it would (presumably) never have been stolen and would be a late 1940's knucklehead with a set of cases that did not come with the bike from the factory. BUT - If the guy I sold the cases to stamped them with a hardware store set of stamps, the VIN would be 'altered'.

As a tea Party Republican, I must admit, I'm more of a rule-follower than most. But let's be practical here. What does one do with a machine that has been legally registered for many years with altered numbers - crush the motor cases and replace them with an aftermarket set? Is this not an over-reaction to an unfortunate circumstance that does more harm? I do agree with the practice of not judging bikes with altered numbers. We must uphold these standards. But these bikes must not be ostricized from our meets and their Owners looked upon as unsrupulous people either, as THEY are not Felons or otherwise immoral in any way whatsoever.

I certainly do see both sides of this issue, and like many I am somewhat torn. My personal restorations all have pristine numbers. But I do hold my position here. In my humble opinion, this is an issue upon which 'Reasonable people may reasonably disagree'.

Bill

[Chris Haynes]

If a restored machine entered into judging is found to have replacement cases it is gigged. It did not leave the factory with replacement cases. This happened to Bruce Palmer III with a restored WLA.

[Chris Haynes]

In my opinion, far greater the crime to destroy an engine case because of some questionable history. I've been fooling around with old motorcycles for over 30 years and spoke with many authorized Harley dealers that commonly retamped VIN on exchange motors. Was it legal everywhere for them to do this? I don't know. And of course many a used set of cases were restamped to replace badly damaged sets, often by the owner that bought a set of stamps at the hardware store. We so highly regard our old machines now with "correctness" being a major concern, but at that time nobody cared. I wasn't important that the motorcycle passed some rigorous technical inspection, only that it looked and ran well. Like Bob says, get on the damn thing and ride it.

If the dealer followed factory protocall and filled out the tag on the cases. Filling out the space for the new number and mailing it back to the MoCo it will be in the Company record. This can easily be checked by any LEO. However this does not make it OK to use that case on a restored machine in for fine point judging.

[D.A.Bagin]

I was just up in Albany N.Y. promoting the club and the Rhinebeck meet and had a gentleman tell me his tale of woe. As I recall he was trailering 2 bikes in an enclosed trailer up to the Harley Rendezvous and got pulled over in a rest area roadblock. The officer, in his opinion, said his belly # looked su****ious. Not the vin. The belly matched the vin. Seized the bikes, both of them, acid tested, and didn't find conclusive evidence as to the validity. This person said the officer never called harley to cross check the belly with the vins. They then never contacted the owner and woundn't give any info on his bikes to him and auctioned them off. He is now out 2 bikes and can't afford to pay an attorney to attempt to sue the state. I don't know how accurate this is but this was his story.

[Chris Haynes]

Back in the '70's Tom Noel (The guy who compiled the Panhead Service Manual) had his VL impounded for altered numbers. He lost the bike. Then the Cops auctioned off the bike to a new owner who got title to it. He sued the bejesus out of them and won. Based on if is is illegal for me to own how can someone else own it?