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Cannonball firing order 1-3-4-2

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  • #16
    The Militaire shows back up at the University today. I will post some battle scar pictures of the bike on the original thread started by my students. We will list our findings pertaining to the Militaire also on that thread. As for Westfall's engine, we will list findings as well.

    Pete, as far as your Pierce goes, you are going back one generation further than the Henderson and the Militaire in terms of frailty. I'll bet if you look at the big end bores of the connecting rods you'll find crude tooling marks where the original boring equipment was pushed through with no regard to finish. I also think, if you push your Pierce, rod dippers won't be enough. I built two Detroit engines with the Cannonball rods in them. The rods were designed after the only non-presssurized lubrication system in severe duty conditions today. As hard as it seems to believe, Briggs and Stratton 5 hp race cart engines are non-pressurized and have journal diameters extremely close in size to that of the Henderson and Militaire, both around .900 inch. I went to cart racing tracks and talked with builders and dads and came away with the best racing cart rod for longevity. That became the foundation for designing and building the rods we ran in the Cannonball. So if you're repouring shells and adding dippers, I would question the fit of the shell in the big end of the rod. This is very important to shed the heat. Of course, all this boils down to how hard you are going to ride your Pierce. The Cannonball rod dippers are hollow and not only pump oil to the rod journal but also pump oil in an annular ring on the outside of the bearing between the bearing shell and the rod bore and exit two drilled holes at the base of the rod beam that spray the cylinder walls and the bottom of the piston crown. You will be able to veiw shots of our rods on this thread when the Westfall bike gets to the school. Good luck with your Pierce I have never built one but did have a friend who was going through one and got to look inside a few years back.

    Mike thanks for the Kind words for all of the support people it means alot.

    Mark

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    • #17
      Stirring the Pot

      Cannonball II ? Wolfe Pac be dammed (and maybee they will). Their will be at least one green roadrunner on the fly to out wit the best dogs you quadra (pipe) peds can muster up :-) . Let the games begin.
      Joe

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      • #18
        Thanks for those comments, Mark. The Pierce rod journals are .860, with one undersize at .855. The finish on the shells and bearings is actually quite good. Obviously someone's been at it before me. The journals are drilled, but the holes are blind and don't go anywhere. That was a disappointment as I thought the crank had been drilled. The oil pump is surprisingly large, and would probably be up to the job of pressure lubrication. It just feeds the rear two mains, as the front is splash fed be the timing gears. It would be a relatively simple matter to run a pipe across to it if the crank had been drilled. The pump also pumps oil from the sump up to the splash chamber. The level of oil in it is controlled by a stand pipe which is located at the rear, which seems odd. The level would be lower if the bike were going uphill. It would make more sense to have it in the middle, I think.
        I don't think I will ever do a Cannonball on this bike, but I'd like it to run without exploding.
        Pete

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        • #19
          Pete,
          Running without exploding is a GOOD thing. Keep us posted.
          Mike

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          • #20
            Yes Pete, a bit of an update now and then on your build would be interesting. I hope to see it at Tsawwassen one day!!!
            Cory Othen
            Membership#10953

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            • #21
              Wolf Pack Rising

              Originally posted by Slojo View Post
              Cannonball II ? Wolfe Pac be dammed (and maybee they will). Their will be at least one green roadrunner on the fly to out wit the best dogs you quadra (pipe) peds can muster up :-) . Let the games begin.
              Joe
              The games are afoot. There will be at least 3 four-cylinders with Mr. Schwinn's headstock badge in the hunt. It's become very popular to reintroduce species in particular areas where they once roamed. Wisconsin will see a reintroduction. I like history and I heard once about this brilliant engineer who privately worked on a design and submitted it to his employer. The employer must have realized that, besides doing his day-to-day work, the man was brilliant. Two tacks could have been taken here with this individual: 1. cut him loose and let him run and stand back and suck up the credit; 2. Fear this individual had more talent and tact than the rest of the engineering staff and turn their backs. I believe the official comments made to none other than Mr. Arthur Constantine were, "that is a waste of valuable company time." Of course, the upper staff at HD had just scolded Connie, as he was referred to, for designing the legendary Super X. Connie was nobody's fool. He put the Super X prints in his back pocket and moved to Chi-Town and promptly designed the streamliner KJ. New Cannonball, eh? 1915-29. I'll bet the '29 part is for the HD twin cam clause. Joe, everybody knows the 1920's belong to Schwinn. Didn't they have a guy named Joe who was pretty good on that Super X? Another guy named Gene didn't do too bad either. Speaking of that old Super X, I think it spawned the mighty Indian Scout that gave Ole Milwaukee fits for quite some time. One more thing about that X, doesn't HD still make some version of a 750 cc unit construction kit for racing? Definitely time to reintroduce the Wolf to Milwaukee. We're going to see if we can make Mr. Schwinn smile again this year.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 4thcoast View Post
                The games are afoot. There will be at least 3 four-cylinders with Mr. Schwinn's headstock badge in the hunt. It's become very popular to reintroduce species in particular areas where they once roamed. Wisconsin will see a reintroduction. I like history and I heard once about this brilliant engineer who privately worked on a design and submitted it to his employer. The employer must have realized that, besides doing his day-to-day work, the man was brilliant. Two tacks could have been taken here with this individual: 1. cut him loose and let him run and stand back and suck up the credit; 2. Fear this individual had more talent and tact than the rest of the engineering staff and turn their backs. I believe the official comments made to none other than Mr. Arthur Constantine were, "that is a waste of valuable company time." Of course, the upper staff at HD had just scolded Connie, as he was referred to, for designing the legendary Super X. Connie was nobody's fool. He put the Super X prints in his back pocket and moved to Chi-Town and promptly designed the streamliner KJ. New Cannonball, eh? 1915-29. I'll bet the '29 part is for the HD twin cam clause. Joe, everybody knows the 1920's belong to Schwinn. Didn't they have a guy named Joe who was pretty good on that Super X? Another guy named Gene didn't do too bad either. Speaking of that old Super X, I think it spawned the mighty Indian Scout that gave Ole Milwaukee fits for quite some time. One more thing about that X, doesn't HD still make some version of a 750 cc unit construction kit for racing? Definitely time to reintroduce the Wolf to Milwaukee. We're going to see if we can make Mr. Schwinn smile again this year.
                Yes! It is about time someone replied to my competitive nature. A competent challenger that is what I am talking about. I will concede only one fact, Four pipers have an advantage over 45 degree twins that does not mean they will be successful all the time. Their smooth running characteristics over the 45 degree twins inability to achieve primary balance is the issue here. Bring on the Shwinns and let the games begin! Lonnie you out there?
                Joe

                PS: "New Cannonball, eh? 1915-29. I'll bet the '29 part is for the HD twin cam clause" , I will be running a 22 JD. most likley. Doesn't the KJ (Schwinn badged machine) fall into the same time frame? Humm?

                Great post 4thcoast.
                Last edited by Slojo; 10-28-2010, 08:43 AM.

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                • #23
                  Or is the 29 part to let a Cleveland (Tornado/century) in ?

                  bet there are some hopped up KJ`s around Mark

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                  • #24
                    I thought the Clevelands had a big Achilles heel, NO PRESSURE CRANK!

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                    • #25
                      Barry, Late models all seem to be fitted with oil pressure gauges, well in the pic`s i have
                      Would like more info about these 4`s, not readily availible tho?

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                      • #26
                        Stoke the fire

                        A JDH would be a nice machine to go head to head with a Henderson KJ (Schwinn). Still the primary balance factor will be the major obstacle to contend with. Something to ponder.
                        Joe

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                        • #27
                          Mercury balancing would probably cure the JDH vibration problem. I just had a flywheel done for my Chief. It is not assembled yet so I can not personally vouch for it but others who did it recommend doing it. It balances a v twin for any rpm. Tom Wilcock AMCA# 381

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                          • #28
                            www.motorcyclecannonball.com

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                            • #29
                              visited 4th coast today. here is Mark setting up the rod boring machine to perform magic on a custom designed 1917 Henderson rod, a work of art
                              [img]P1200711[/img]
                              [img]P1200712[/img]
                              Last edited by Barry Brown; 10-30-2010, 06:26 PM. Reason: added photo

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                              • #30
                                Hey Barry,
                                Great having you come down yesterday. Thanks for posting the pics of the cannonball rods. They work on 13 -19 hendersons. These are the rods we used in Frank's Detroit pictured above. If you look at the tail of the Rod you will see a milled slot. That slot is hollow and pumps oil through the bearing on both the inside (babbitt) and outside (bronze). The oil exits the rod just above the rod bolt hole and sprays the cylinder wall down for reduced friction. The real lightning in the bottle is the cycling of oil through the rod journal for cooling of the journal and bearing. Osborne Reynolds would be happy (father of modern hydrodynamic lubrication). The shaft sizes in the early engines are spooky; lots of Detroit engines with the sides welded back on them. All of the cannonballers pushed those machines hard and fast. It sure is great to see what can be done with these eary bikes. I am glad to be into the 20's and out of the "splash age" for the next cannonball. I have to tell you I was one nervous engine builder - we had so little time to test. One of the sweetest things that came about as a result of the cannonball build of Westfall's engine is, out of the box, that Detroit was damn good and a huge sigh of relief for me. We spent a lot of money to prove it could be done on a henderson of that vintage. People say they did it back then, yes, they did, and they pitched rods and broke crankcases on a regular basis. I know of no V twins that use babbitted rod bearings. You roller bearing guys have got it easy in that aspect. I get to fix a lot of those engines. Like Joe has mentoined, above all, engine configurations have an achilles heel. Working around that is the goal. Bearing speed, shaft velocity and surface area all conspire against these little motors being pushed hard. Check out the thin wall spun cast big end bearing insert. The look on Frank's face says it all.

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