Knucklehead restamp job???

[tomclay]

I agree about the Judging! I will *NEVER* get another bike judged, because of the way this is handled, and judges that are completely clueless as to what is correct. They act like they are the experts, when actually many times they have a lot to learn about the bike they are judging.

[exeric]

Enough history has been destroyed by AMCA rules already.

....Cotten
#776[/QUOTE]

Specifically, what?

[T. Cotten]

Eric!

I have only passing knowledge of judging policy, so please correct me if I am wrong. I only witness the results.

Let us begin with the most destructive judging policy, which demands that if part of the machine is restored, it all must be, or it shall be docked heavily.

Thus many a museum-grade piece of hardware has been put through the wash, and its authenticity, and the information it offers, is lost forever. Over-restoration has been encouraged.

Modern formulae of paints cannot reflect light the same as the original. Modern plating (or parkerizing, etc.) rarely, if ever, achieves the character of the original. A piece is only original once.

AMCA judging drives enthusiasts to achieve a mythical ideal. Machines did not come from their factories as pristine, nor as uniform as can be achieved today.

Thus History is re-written, and the 'fossil record' destroyed.

....Cotten
AMCA #776

[exeric]

The AMCA never required anyone to restore a motorcycle. To the contrary; the AMCA has always encouraged preservation of original paint/condition motorcycles. Restoration is a personal decision.

Having said that, I know many bikes have been restored that should have been left alone. However, in many cases, restoration was the preferred alternative to continued neglect or disposal. I think the AMCA has encouraged scholarship to re-discover lost institutional knowledge. In general, I believe the AMCA has done more to preserve motorcycle history by it's presence than if the AMCA had not existed.

[T. Cotten]

Pete!

I have never had a machine judged.
I do not own a judge-able machine, and most likely shall never afford one.

I speak solely for the welfare of my clientele.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

A further complication were "late issues": machines built around NOS cases by dealers to fill "open titles" and stamped at the dealerships. Open titles have been illegal for many years, however it did not stop the practice, and continued into modern times....Cotten
#776

I am just curious what an open title is? Never heard of one in CA.

[exeric]

What happened to Pete Reeves' post ?

[Rubone]

What happened to Pete Reeves' post ?

The only one who could have removed it is Pete, so ask him!

I am just curious what an open title is? Never heard of one in CA.

An open title is nothing more than a piece of paper that for whatever reason no longer is attached to the vehicle it was issued for. Fro example, a guy burn his bike to the ground by accident but keeps his title. If he signs it over to someone and it is a no inspection situation, they then have a title for something that does not exist. Lots of old dealers bought wrecked or broken bikes and parted them out, keeping the titles for some future use, thus an "open" title. Remember that back then any dealer could re-stamp if they chose to with little or no consequence. it is not a legal term, only a common one. And I am sure there were plenty in Kalifornia.
Robbie

[pete reeves]

CENSORSHIP.

Kevin.

I strongly protest that you have removed my post in support of our judging system. I would appreciate it if you would reinstate my post.

As the administrator of this Forum I know you have the ability to lock or remove posts. Why did you feel it necessary to remove mine?

As the administrator it is your responsibility to act impartially. Yet you have allowed others on this forum to insult, slander, imply threats to fellow members and post disparaging remarks about our clubs judging system in support of the campaign to get both you and Robin reinstated.

Why did you feel it necessary to Censor my post in support of our judging system. My Post contained no insults, Slander, threats or disparaging remarks.
As a member of this Club and a member of this Forum I am perfectly entitled to Post here.

You may not Like or agree with my posts and you have demonstrated your ability to remove/censor them.

You do not have the right to do this.

Pete Reeves #860

[exeric]

In Florida, an open title was a title signed by the owner with the buyer's space left blank. This was done if the owner left the vehicle with a relative or friend to sell. This was not a good idea and technically not acceptable to the Florida DMV. One problem was finding a notary that would put their stamp on the title without the owner present. The big problem with open titles in Florida was; if a theif stole your bike and your open title you were (in the eyes of Florida) s.o.l. Lastly, an open title could be used to legitimize a number job.

Kevin, you need to re-post Pete Reeves' letter.

[Paps]

In Florida, an open title was a title signed by the owner with the buyer's space left blank. This was done if the owner left the vehicle with a relative or friend to sell. This was not a good idea and technically not acceptable to the Florida DMV. One problem was finding a notary that would put their stamp on the title without the owner present. The big problem with open titles in Florida was; if a theif stole your bike and your open title you were (in the eyes of Florida) s.o.l. Lastly, an open title could be used to legitimize a number job.

Kevin, you need to re-post Pete Reeves' letter.

That is how it is here in Ohio as well. In reference to salvage yards, a salvage yard must take possession of the vehicle title [ with signature ] upon exceptance of a motor vehicle. The salvage company must maintain possession of said title as proof vehicle was not stolen. I don't recall but I think...key word....think....they turn the titles over to the BMV after a certain amount of time passes.

[T. Cotten]

I am curious why Pete's post disappeared as well,
as it contained nothing that controversial.
( More confusion: Robin's copy of it that follows is a great deal longer and more in depth than I remember. Perhaps Pete was in the midst of editing it.)

And now I realize he was replying to Tom Clay, so I feel stoopider than usual!
My closest experience with judging was to be refused entry, and I mistakenly thought he was addressing that episode.

And Chris,
As Robbie explained, open titles are that stack of papers hidden under the false bottom of the boss's desk drawer.

And Eric!
You can't be that naieve.
With all due respect for the intentions of the judging program, the result of the 'restored' catagory has been wholesale molestation. Conservation should be emphasized over restoration.
And frankly, as more and more enthusiasts become savvy to the historical value of their machines, conservation is becoming the mindset of the masses; more and more are dismissing AMCA judging altogether.
This is what I see as an industry member, daily.

I call it the "Antiques Roadshow" phenomenon.

....Cotten
AMCA #776

[Rubone]

Anyplace that requires a Notary Public to witness an act usually only requires that the signature of the person named on a title signs it, they don't care who the buyer is. So if a title is signed and notarized it is a legal instrument that can be assigned to anyone. What most states hate is that if it passes through several hands before it is properly filed they cannot collect taxes at each transaction.
Robbie

[Robin-M]

Yesterday, when Pete Reeves's post was on, I copied it so I could paste it in a word document and print it so I would have it on file. There's no way I could have deleted it. I don't know what happened to it. But, since I had it copied, I thought I'd post it since I want to reply to it.

Tom.
It’s a pity you will not have your bike judged again, from what has been written on this and other forums I can understand why you have reached this decision. What I do not understand is why you say the judges are completely useless when, in reality the current judges are exactly the same as those who judged under Kevin and Robin. Having sufficient qualified judges has always been a problem, encouraging judges who no longer judge to take part and recruiting and training new judges is a top priority of the judging committee.

Robin.
I can understand your disappointment at not getting your friend Kevin’s position but I do not accept that this is an excuse to continually insult anybody that supports our current clubs judging system.
You say you have devoted 35 years to promote the most prestigious motor cycle judging system in the world .Yet it appears because you did not get the chief judges position you have mounted a campaign on this and non AMCA web sites to undermine and discredit its reputation?
You mention the “new- formed- judging committee was formed to push though new rules. This committee was made up of 12 senior or national judges mostly members of the original committee including both you and Kevin. This committee did as you say discuss Vin numbers and came up with a recommendation that numbers must be good. YOU voted FOR this recommendation, which was put to the board of directors who approved it.

To all members interested in judging.

The interpretation of a good number is how it would have been stamped at the factory. Misaligned/uneven and any other faults associated with hand stamping are perfectly acceptable. Honest repairs on a number boss are also acceptable although deductions could be made depending on how obvious the repair is. Numbers must have the correct font if this information is available for the particular year make and model.
Bad numbers would be any that show signs the original number has been removed or over stamped or the wrong font has been used if the correct font is known.
If a team of judge’s feels there is a problem with a number it would be brought to the attention of the chief judge who would consult with other specialist judges before a final decision is made. If there is any doubt the bike would be judged.

The previous policy was to ignore all but the very worst examples of bad numbers and inevitably some bikes with bad numbers have received prestigious AMCA judging awards.

Pete Reeves. AMCA #860 National deputy Judge. member of the previous and current judging committee

[kval]

CENSORSHIP.

Kevin.

I strongly protest that you have removed my post in support of our judging system. I would appreciate it if you would reinstate my post.

As the administrator of this Forum I know you have the ability to lock or remove posts. Why did you feel it necessary to remove mine?

As the administrator it is your responsibility to act impartially. Yet you have allowed others on this forum to insult, slander, imply threats to fellow members and post disparaging remarks about our clubs judging system in support of the campaign to get both you and Robin reinstated.

Why did you feel it necessary to Censor my post in support of our judging system. My Post contained no insults, Slander, threats or disparaging remarks.
As a member of this Club and a member of this Forum I am perfectly entitled to Post here.

You may not Like or agree with my posts and you have demonstrated your ability to remove/censor them.

You do not have the right to do this.

Pete Reeves #860

Peter
I DID NOT remove your post!!! my wife saw it and printed it out for me, and when I got home and read it I wanted to answer it. when I went to the forum, it was gone, I wanted to correct some of the misrepresented facts that you had written.
since I started to administrate this forum, I have only had to remove 1 member for using very vulgar language, I do not and will not remove any post just because I do not happen to agree with it and do not like you statng that I did and acuse me of not being impartial. anybody that knows me knows that if I have something to say, I just say it. that is why I am no longer the chief judge, I stood up for a member, and you and "your friend" did not like it and started all this.
PS: I have no way that I know of to repost a deleted post.