Tweet
With all due respect Kevin, I totally disagree with the reasoning behind the new judging disclaimer. I could claim my bike is a Harley Davidson when I advertise it for sale. If it is titled a Harley Davidson, it is a Harley Davidson, no matter what form it now may be in. The buyer can not and will not seek a judgment against Harley Davidson, because of what I stated it to be as. The Club disclaimer should read more like....The club will except no legal responsibility, what so ever, bla bla bla... for how the owner of a judged machine uses his scoring and his scoring reflects only the moment in time of the date for which the machine was judged. Paps
-
-
Paps
please do not shoot the messenger, I only posted it as per board orders.
that is in no way saying that I agree with everything the board approves
Kevin Valentine 13
EX-Chief Judge
-
No shot fired Kevin. The disclaimer is just way to legally complicated and really has no standing merit other than to disgrace the judges themselves and prevent a seller of a machine from mentioning the machine he is offering up for sale was judged and scored by the AMCA. If I my prized bull wins a blue ribbon at the county fair and I turn around and sell the animal as a blue ribbon winner a year later or so, only means the animal scored as such at the time of judging. Heck....even if I sell him the very same day he buys the animal, the fair can't be held liable and neither can I.Comment
-
Good morning,
Like Kevin said, he had to post this. This is from the NEW JUDGING SYSTEM trying to be implemented. The same people that started the illegal judging committee and had our fearless president kick Kevin and I out. As I said, they are going to destroy our smooth running judging system, with their ignorance, lack of knowledge and arrogance. They do not care about you or me, they care about the speed at which they can implement their "New Changes".
This is just one of many, many more to come.
We need the help of the membership before this goes any further.
Robin MarkeyComment
-
Liability release
Actually, this release came from AMCA lawyer John Wendel, and AMCA BOD Richard Spagnolli, not from the Judging Committee. It is actually authored by Richard, and he plans on explaining it in the next magazine. It was voted on by the BOD, and was passed by everyone, (including then Chief Judge Kevin,) except myself. A modified version has just been adopted, and voted on, and the results were the same; I was the only NO vote. Again, this Liability Release did not occur from the Judging Committee.Originally posted by Robin-M View Post
As much as I am against it, it really doesn't amount to too much for our judging procedure, and continuation of our operation and enjoyment of our passions here.
For the good of the Club, RF.Comment
-
Whoops - sorry! I knew Richard Spagnolli helped with it and I knew he was also watching over the pre-Eustis judging committee. Since I'm not allowed to participate in the new judging committee I'm not privy to all the information.
In my opinion, it's all tied together, since there's two too board members on the judging committee, which helps to swing the board vote.
Sorry I got my facts wrong, I admit when I'm wrong.
RobinComment
-
Fred, the board, it's attorneys or advisors are just taking this disclaimer thing too far. This disclaimer has been written in a threatening manor. This will effectively eliminate why many have had a bike judged in the first place. There is not, never has been, anything that says the judging is perfect. There is no statement that encourages people to have bikes judged to try and increase value. It has just been a defacto thing of the AMCA. Peolple had bikes judged as just a tool in establishing a bikes credibility, which to some may have inferred value as well. While price may be between buyer and seller, the fact a bike has been judged will always lend credibility to the correctness of a bike with no specific qualitative or quantitative value. To take that out of the equation means the seller has no basis to judge the correctness on other than his good will with no other simple independent means of determining what is what. Again, there is nothing guarenteeing the correctness.
This disclaimer smacks of restraint of trade. The club is now interfering with an owner's right to determine fair market value. The judging is an opinion, not a fact. The sale of a bike is always buyer be aware to start with. I would have never bought my first Indian if not for the fact it had been judged. I knew nothing about Indians. I felt it gave me a starting point, which it did. To force this on the members in this form with the threats there will certainly impact judging in a negative way. Look for less bikes being judged in the future. You have just now put a wedge between owner and the club. Simplify it. Get rid of the threats, and get it condensed so it is part of the judging form, not an imposing full separate page of legalese. It will be a cold day in hell before I sign it as written.Comment
-
release
Robin, Marty & all,
Yes, two BOD members serve on the Judging Committee. It used to be three. I don't see this as any controversial power play, but rest assured, I will not be voting on the BOD issues regarding the Judging Committee if there is a conflict of interest.
Marty, the waiver has been re-worded, so it's not exactly how you describe (how do you describe something you've never seen?). A different version that has been rumored is in the process, and will be fully explained by it's author, in the next magazine. Please don't miss-understand me on this; I am not defending the release, just trying to keep the facts straight, and curtail the which hunt here.
Merry Easter, RF.Comment
-
The disclaimer should be eliminated period ! If the club wishes to cover its rear end, then print something on the scoring award which makes a statement to the effect, the club is not responsible for total accuracy in its judging. The clubs butt is covered now and the bike owner is free to make claim as to it being judged in point values at the time bike was judged. If the disclaimer becomes club practice, what will be next ? Will judges be required to sign waivers which prevent them from putting their stamp of correctness approval outside of the club ? PapsComment
-
disclaimer
Fred, if they have the re written version, why wait to post it in the magazine? Get it out now for comments. This thing has already caused enough tension.Comment
-
Fred
the "judging disclaimer" and "new judging disclaimer explained" that is posted on the forum in the "Welcome/Announcement/Disclaimer" section is the revised version that will also appear in the magazine, as per Richard Spagnolli.
Originally posted by Red Fred View PostKevin Valentine 13
EX-Chief JudgeComment
-
disclaimer
Fred, I had already read the revised version before my previous posts. I will still stand by my comments. This is a P.O.S!
Until the threatening language is removed, you will alienate and offend any member who takes the time to read this. There might as well be no judging at all if we need to stoop this this. I and others have taken a lot of pride in building their bikes for judging. Not eveyone is interested in doing this just to sell a bike; in fact, they are in the minority. But I'll be damned if I will have anyone tell me what I can do with my bike because of having had it judged. I will stand by the fact it is an opinion. It isn't gospel. To force this on members after 50 years shows how out of touch the board is with the membership. Has the board forgotten what FLAME stands for in the bylaws? Tell us how this improves on any of the tenants of what the bylaws were meant for. It goes against the grain of this club to be treated in this manner. How can you have family activities when you are threatening members?That is what the F[family] stands for in FLAME for those of you who have never read them.
I am not in disagreement with the need for a disclaimer; just the language and length.Comment
-
I'm really amazed by all the hate and discontent advertising a bike as an AMCA senior, junior etc., etc, is causing. In addition to the AMCA, I'm a member of the Model A Resorer's Club, the Model A Ford Club of America, Early Ford V8 Club and the AACA. For years it has been common for people that want to sell vehicles judged by these clubs and have won national awards to advertise them accordingly. I'm not aware of one instance in over 35 years where legal problems have occurred from a buyer claiming misrepresentation by the seller because the vehicle has been awarded a national trophy. However, nobody has been repopping other vehicles in the manner that I see in our club. Parts are one thing but complete bikes are another issue. But the bottom line is it is up to the buyer to perform due diligence and I'm sad to see that some people want to claim the "victim" role and not take responsibility for their own mistakes while wanting to blame the AMCA and seek legal recourse.
In any case, I feel very badly for Kevin and Robin, both of whom are exceptionally dedicated members and put great time and effort (more than anybody will ever know) to develop, execute and maintain a fair and sound judging system.
Steve CiccaloneComment
-
Hi Steve and all,
I want to thank you and all the people that are supporting me on this judging issue. Your support shows me how correct I am and how wrong this takeover is. I can’t believe all the phone calls and email I’ve gotten in support of having our judging system return to normal again, so that we can continue to make it grow in the right direction. There have been some evenings that Kim and I have been on 3 phones at the same time, probably in the midst of answering one of many emails. Maybe if we all stick together we will have it back again.
Those of you that are judges that have called, I understand your concerns and I can’t make you judge under this new system and with the inexperienced leadership. Those of you that need your bike judged and don’t want to put it in under the new and ever changing rules, I can’t blame you. Like many of you said, your judging sheet under this new group and new rules will always be on record whether it’s right or wrong, affecting this history of your bike. But be patient. Things have to change, It has gone so far down the wrong road that if it continues it will be lost forever.
Again, thanks for all your support.
Robin
Your former Assistant Chief JudgeComment
-
AMCA Judging In Advertisements
Like Chicagohen, I belong to another club (National Corvette Restorers Society) where members selling their cars routinely tell what their cars have received in awards. I don't see any problems or legal issues. It's a good way to explain the condition of your car.Rod Hansen, Jr.Comment
Comment