auction sale result - harley racer

[Sargehere]

I know where you're coming from, DrSprocket. Everybody loves a bar hopper. But this ain't a bar hopper. It's being pawned off as a very rare and valuable period racing machine.
This one will never see the pavement between here and Muggsy's Irish Pub, if you know what I mean. It'll also never, I'll wager, ever see a race track, if it ever has.
D'ya see the price it went for? 29,000 of the Queen's Pounds Sterling. I checked. Today that's $45,059.28.
If it was built "last week," (there are reproduction "8-valve" top ends now available for egg-zackly to build this kind of "fantasy special") it's not a $45,000 value, and some poor schmuck with more money than brains spent that for it, which brings considerable disrepute down on the whole world of 'Antique Motorcycling.'
In fact, if it's a put together, artificially-aged "crustoration," a combination of some stock 1920's Harley parts and some home built parts, and cylinders and heads that were manufactured about six months ago, I wouldn't trade you a 52 Crosley for it. It may be just someone's fantasy bike built to deceive, which it has, apparently.
The difference isn't in what it "IS," either. But in what it's being pawned off "to be." For Profit, as something it may not be.

[Barry Brown]

In spite of my opinion of auction companies I like the look of that "Black Widow" job but then again I am a sucker for lost causes! Looks like a lot of work and 45K doesn't seem exhorbitant except when you add on Bonhams' pound of flesh.

[HarleyCreation]

If a guy builds a bike out of an assortment of parts for fun or bar-hopping that is something no one will have a problem with. Just keep honest about what it is.

But when a bike with an oddball motor that Harley never built sells for a lofty amount of money without any explanation behind it begs to be analyzed. The fact that it sold for so much will give it a certain credibility and an authenticity it may not deserve. Especially when the description of it is mostly generic fluff with a brief "don't know" disclaimer.

Certainly this "Black Widow" creation has a history or provenance of some sort, but when it isn't provided at a sale for good money, our suspicions should be aroused.

Isn't part of the fun to learn as much as possible about antique American motorcycles and then describe them in the most accurate and truthful manner possible? If we can help educate a few interested people along the way that would seem to be a good thing.

My 2 cents.

[Sargehere]

Replica

I agree that it looks like it's something in its own right, if it is a contemporary "replica racer," like the guys in AHMRA run. There are two Amal, or "amal-type' carbs on it, and a modern throttle, among other things. So what bugs me is that Bonham's, representing the seller, can't say that?
They're full of obscurity, 'can't say when it was converted,' 'can't provide its history.'
They're looking for the sucker, is what they mean; some tyro thinking that he's getting a 1920s Harley race job, when, really, they are getting a "fantasy bike."
And how many changes of hands, and passings of generations will it be, before all distinction falls away, and this thing is classified in the same category as one ridden by Joe Petrali, KC Jones? That's what the AMCA is trying to avoid with the rules changes. The claiming of 'authenticity;' a kind of 'certification' that attaches with a prize from the club's judging teams, when all it is, is a repop, or generations newer than what it purports to be.

[rwm]

see one of harry's bike here
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...ighlight=valve
i to would ride that bike till my teeth filled with bugs.auctioneers are the sleeziest people i have dealt with they know what that bike is or is not.

[jurassic]

a few years ago i built a "fantasy harley 8 valve" . not including my labor ,i had $37,000 in that build. and i get a discount on repo harley parts too! so i think whomever bought that bike knew what they were buying,and got a pretty good deal on it too.had the top end been real, the top end alone would be worth 10 times what the whole bike sold for.thats how rare real harley 8 valve top ends are. too bad someone isn't documenting all the real 8 valves.then this wouldn't be an issue.as to auction houses,i have nothing good to say ,so i wont say anything at all.

[RichO]

Mr. Faber

You are spot on. That is a Hacker machine I'm sure. I have seen it in races on some of the Euro blogs and websites. I have also seen early photos of late 20's Harleys exported to Europe for racing with that style upper end and pipes. Not saying that's true in this case, but one never knows. Auctioneers by trade are a little iffy but it seems lately that alot of people want to shoot first and ask questions later. Buyer beware, be it bikes, cars, trains, planes, or art, etc. I know alot of people builting replicas on both coasts and in the middle and not one of them is misrepresenting them for anything but what they are. If it seems to good to be true it probally is. Enough, let's ride. The real ones speak for themselves, or as grandma said, "the proofs in the pudding".

[fabercycle]

Sarge, I already tried to make it clear, this was a contemporary race machine, that's why it has the modern throttle twist, because race rules require a spring return throttle, I'm sure the carbs are Dellorto's with a remote float bowl, because they're on a crazy 'gas spilling' angle. Bonhams is obviously a owner or two away from the real story, so maybe they don't know sh_ _ .

I know Harry well, and he didn't put the OHV heads on for curiositys sake or to fool any one, it's about HP. I'm sure the bike has won some races and has value on it's own for being a race ready machine built within the rulebook standards of the European sanctioned racing body.

Jurrasic is right about what a bike costs to build. Try to buy a fresh race ready AHRMA road race WR or Indian scout....a well sorted machine that has a current winning race history is as pricey as a 99pt restoration....quick throttle or not.

postscript, a 99pt restoration, doesn't have to hold together at 100mph on the high banks of D.I.S.

[Sargehere]

Sarge, I already tried to make it clear, this was a contemporary race machine, that's why it has the modern throttle twist, because race rules require a spring return throttle, I'm sure the carbs are Dellorto's with a remote float bowl, because they're on a crazy 'gas spilling' angle. Bonhams is obviously an owner or two away from the real story, so maybe they don't know sh_ _ . ...
postscript, a 99pt restoration, doesn't have to hold together at 100mph on the high banks of D.I.S.

Faber, I understand that. It's a modern "old-time flavored" racing machine, like AHMRA. But to read Bonham's description, its a "NINETEEN TWENTY SIX HARLEY RACER."
What I'm pointing out is something that goes right to the reasons for the new changes in the AMCA judging rules, and exactly why it's so important, what we're doing right now, about reproductions: Like you say, the bike is "an owner or two away from the real story, so they don't know..."
So, they're looking at it, and probably appraising it, in their little minds, as a "1926 Harley racing bike," which it's not. Not as a historical artifact, but a modern retro-racer, a modernized re-pop, for all purposes
When the bike came out of that culture, the banked ovals and road race courses of modern historical racing, and was sold to some "collector," no doubt an "investor," looking for it to "appreciate in value," it lost its true provenance, and now it's being looked at as our restored historical originals are. WE'RE (the club, AMCA) PUTTING A STOP TO THAT!
We have to maintain the wall, the barrier, that distinction between what makes an original bike, and a pile of parts assembled for an entirely different purpose. This distinction is going to be lost completely on generations not even born yet, let alone, a bike like this being passed between three and four hands, of "investors," in only a few years!
Personally, I think whoever put $45,000 up for it right here, got burned, if they're not going AHMRA racing with it, but who think it deserves "veneration" (and valuation) as a "1926 collectors item."

[jurassic]

how will this wall of distinction be maintained? nowadays i think most of us can use common sense to judge a bikes validity. but in 30 or 40 years when most of us are gone ,where will enthusiasts, or investors go to get accurate information on a specific motorcycle? its been 25 years since jim made his first keystone harley frame. i wonder how many real ones there were before that. i know there were some nice original factory race motors around without frames.

[Sargehere]

You have to wrap your mind around the fact that if it looks exactly like the original it's "okay," just like any other repop part. IF it has the hallmarks, the casting numbers as the were, and where they belong. What is stopping is our ignoring "pretty good" repop frames, thereby "passing pretty good" frames on to our descendants as originals, certifying a Winners' Circle of Excellence bike as "exemplary of the marque, model and year that it was built," diluting and muddying the waters for later generations. It's all in what you can see, or don't see, which is all that it can be.
How do we do that? By passing our knowledge, now on to apprentice judges, creating our next generation of marque experts. And the more documentation the better that we can write down to guide them. That's the only way it can be.

[Harleyson's]

Mystery Black Widow

"if i have to explain it you wouldn't understand"

[jurassic]

now i understand ,the amca is just demanding a higher standard of excellence from repop frame builders. i agree,most repop frames take days of filing,grinding ,and hand shaping to make them undetectable.most restorers skip this painful task.

[jurassic]

so if by chance i had a real 8 valve lower end,and heck even a real frame,and i buy a new 8 valve top end ,and spend the time to make it completly undetectable. then will it pass amca guidelines?

[HarleyCreation]

had the top end been real, the top end alone would be worth 10 times what the whole bike sold for.thats how rare real harley 8 valve top ends are.

That says it all and why this motor looks odd and even silly to me. Or in the lingo of the day, a "freak."

A very rare and exotic 8-valve "type" top sitting on a poor-man's bottom. Even 1920s home-brews using modified Peashooter heads and cylinders had the more efficient and faster acting two-cam racing bottom. This motor is at odds with old racing photos and looks like it was slapped together with an exotic repro top and the only bottom the builder had, the common cheap road model. It's like mating a thoroughbred to a plow nag. Doesn't make much sense considering what we know about early racers. As a modern-make parts bike for speed thrills it's fine, but it's not an authentic Harley racer restoration or replica.

Until the auction houses accurately describe these machines, it's up to enthusiasts to discuss them. And why not? Look how much good we've learned about early Harleys doing that.