"new" barn finds...

[Chris Border MFG]

Thank you Cory. I see now that this has been covered long before I got here. I agree with alot of what was said. Having been in the car world for so long this bike stuff is new even at 10 plus years now. Having been to my first swap meet/ meet at Davenport this last sept. was a real eye opener. I am just blown away by whats out there and the vast amounts of knowledge that everyone shares. That being said. I got to wondering about the "original unrestored, barn find" bikes I saw there and have seen on the Vegas auction site. Made me wonder if they are real as they lead us to believe or are just a pure work of art from someones mind. I too love the old survivors as wel as the shiny office displays. I like them all. I have thought of building my Ex motor ( all that I have of it now ) into a privater racer. As I love the bike. Do I make a shiny display machine or a barn find what if machine? Both are very cool. I would build what I want for me until someone said " I have to have it ". Am I making any sense? I tend to say alot and nothing all at the same time.

[flat-happy]

keep in mind that if you saw EVERYTHING at davenport it doesn't account for even 10 % of what's OUT THERE. most of everything that was ever made still exists somewhere. it's a big planet with many barns and museums.

[exeric]

Very well said Cory. I was talking to a friend yesterday about judging and issues like this. Jurassic proposed the most sensible solution I've yet heard, which is for the club to document authentic bikes. If someone is afraid of the scrutiny they will be conspicuous by their absence from a sanctioned database. Personally, I don't feel sorry for anyone that gets hosed in any deal. If you're over 30 years old, with no guns pointed at your head, and fall for a bad deal, you're getting what you deserve. Con artists are successful because they play on the greed of their victims. Policing stupidity and gulibility is not under the jurisdictuon of the AMCA. If you live in California or Florida, you hear about this stuff all of the time, and the victims are always expecting more than they are entitled to. There's no point in going over this well worn path other than to say; lighten up and enjoy the hobby.

[Barry Brown]

I would think that most victims of scammers want justice not pity and that keeps lawyers in the antique auto world busy . There used to be a page devoted to these matters in Car Collector magazine and I found it fascinating reading. Some Ferraris , Bugattis and Mercedes SSk's have become so valuable in some instances they have been cut up and made into more than one. Recently an italian judge ordered a couple of multi million dollar Ferraris destroyed because of cloned serial numbers etc. I am sure there are scumbags looking on our hobby right now as a "soft touch" for fakes along with their bretheren the auction scumbags .
There is no serial number or other authoritative registry for Cyclones and Merkels etc. The Brough Superior club has had a knowlegeable "registrar" for years but his task has become more difficult with all the clone bikes being made although an effort to document these bikes is underway.
Racing more sporty versions of cars are generally worth more than their pedestrian road going cousins and that motivates fraud just like all the "board track" racers that have been made using "street" engines .
I think a "registry" is a great idea if it is properly implemented.

[Northwoods_Maine]

As someone new to the hobby I'd love to see a registry that all AMCA members could access. Don't we already have much of what would be required already in place with our judging sytem? Wouldn't it be just a matter of creating a database that reflects the scores achieved and judges comments of all bikes being judged. The database could be driven by Year, Make, Model, engine #, frame # (depending on whether it's appropriate for that particular bike, etc. The judging sheets with comments should also be scanned and included in the registry. I don't mean to oversimplify the process, but it seems like the club already has the 'vehicle' by which to implement such a registry database. It should include all bikes that have been judged - good, bad, or otherwise.

I know that there are many among you that are so experienced and knowledgeable that you'd trust no one's opinion but your own before you purchase a bike, but for many of us who don't yet have that level of expertise, a database you could log on to and look up the pertinent judging information/results would be a huge help in determining the value you'd place on any given bike that you may be thinking of purchasing. I would think that this one "tool" would be viewed as a very significant benefit to membership in this club. Just one guy's thoughts.

[D.Mac]

"barn finds"

Chris is right about this "faux-patina" thing going on in the car world for some time. Many of these cars are masterly done, and would fool anyone that doesn't look close. Thats the key, looking close. You know what "state of the art" was in the '50's? There were no wire welders, even lots of show cars built back then were poorly detailed under the hood and certainly in the chassis area. Wiring was often terrible, exausts cobbled etc. A car or bike that been sitting for 40, 50 or more years is almost always going to have some uglys, bad or micky-mouse repairs, cobbled and or bare wires, caked grease and dirt, scrapes and dings on the bottom of frame rails or other parts- and real rust. Human nature being what it is, when we come across an alleged survivor, we want it to be a great score, and it can cloud our reasoning. Look close, most fakes are too nice, it's relatively easy to patina paint, but it's hard to fake 50 years of crud and rust.
Doug.

[kval]

Northwoods
yes some of the judging information is in a database, the Make, Model, Serial # and score is recorded along with some other information. BUT the judges comments is something else, if you want see me after judging and I will show you a sheet, then you try to understand the handwriting. anyone interested in buying a bike that is claimed an AMCA (whatever award/points) can always contact me and I will look up the bike for you. PLEASE!! do not swamp me with requests just to find what a bike scored, because you are curious

As someone new to the hobby I'd love to see a registry that all AMCA members could access. Don't we already have much of what would be required already in place with our judging sytem? Wouldn't it be just a matter of creating a database that reflects the scores achieved and judges comments of all bikes being judged. The database could be driven by Year, Make, Model, engine #, frame # (depending on whether it's appropriate for that particular bike, etc. The judging sheets with comments should also be scanned and included in the registry. I don't mean to oversimplify the process, but it seems like the club already has the 'vehicle' by which to implement such a registry database. It should include all bikes that have been judged - good, bad, or otherwise.

I know that there are many among you that are so experienced and knowledgeable that you'd trust no one's opinion but your own before you purchase a bike, but for many of us who don't yet have that level of expertise, a database you could log on to and look up the pertinent judging information/results would be a huge help in determining the value you'd place on any given bike that you may be thinking of purchasing. I would think that this one "tool" would be viewed as a very significant benefit to membership in this club. Just one guy's thoughts.

[schmittm]

Northwoods
yes some of the judging information is in a database, the Make, Model, Serial # and score is recorded along with some other information. BUT the judges comments is something else, if you want see me after judging and I will show you a sheet

Northwoods,
A comprehensive database with complete detailed information about every bike that has been judged would be wonderful but it would also be a full time job, first to build it and then to maintain it.

The AMCA holds original unrestored motorcycles in high esteem, they are given as much, or more, attention when judged and shown as the completely restored examples.

Every bike that has gone through the judging process should have a portfolio which contains copies of all of the official AMCA Judging Sheets for each time that the bike has been judged. Maintaining the portfolio is the responsibility of the owner and stays with the bike. If you are considering purchasing a motorcycle and the owner claims that it is an AMCA award winner all you have to do is tell him to "Show me the Judging Sheets". If the bike is ligitimate and the owner is honest he'll show you the portfolio (if he hasn't already, after all he's probably proud of it). You don't need a database, all you need to see are the judging sheets from previous events.

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike

[exeric]

When I mentioned an AMCA sanctioned database I should have mentioned that I was refering to pioneer vintage motorcycles. Motorcycles of the early 20th century are of the greatest historical interest. When it comes to Knuckleheads and Chiefs you're talking about thousands of bikes that have been; and will be, altered. There's no way to keep a record of that many motorcycles. Besides, late model bikes are so well documented in numerous books that a potential buyer can't use ignorance as an excuse for getting hosed. It goes back to what I believe should be the AMCA's position. The AMCA should NOT be a police organization that takes any position on engine numbers or part correctness EXCEPT, in the arena of judging.

[Chris Border MFG]

I feel I may have not made may original question clear. I agree with all of the info and data base that is being suggested now. Knowledge is power.... My question worded anothe way is this. If a person builds a bike in a very convincing aged, original, ect. way to look as close as possible to and unrestored bike, how do you guys feel about it? Is it accepted and welcomed? Or is it kicked to the corner like the ugly step child.

[c.o.]

Chris......build the bike you want, tell the truth about it and I don't think your machine will have to sit out on the corner in the cold......

[Ohio-Rider]

Chris......build the bike you want, tell the truth about it and I don't think your machine will have to sit out on the corner in the cold......

Well stated Cory. Being truthful is the key. There is something about this hobby that makes a man's tolerance for bull **** very low.

Remember our club is made up of enthusiast of vintage motorcycles. So new replicas made to look old will always be looked upon with a leery eye. I can personally look at a replica and appreciate the time and tooling it must have taken to create it. But only a rose is a rose. That’s just the way it is.
--Steve

[Chris Border MFG]

Sounds good guys. I have to agree for the BS part. Life is short enough to have to put up with that too. Play hard, make friends, have fun! Looks like I have a bike to build.

[William McClean]

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike[/QUOTE]

Maybe there should be an additon to the National Recognition Awards,
Best Clone or the " the Dolly the Sheep Award " , 1st & 2nd .

We could have the " Dolly " for the clones and for the abstract period modified we couild have the " Dali "

[kval]

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike

Maybe there should be an additon to the National Recognition Awards,
Best Clone or the " the Dolly the Sheep Award " , 1st & 2nd . [/QUOTE]

HEY!!!
how did you guys know about the new "Dolly Sheep Award"???
we have not told anybody about it yet