harley eight valves

[glaser 31]

Herb,
you made me sow surprised,that I drop my coffe copp.
when I read that racing engine starts with M,but is this the same
fore 2 cyl engine.beacuse then I know where there is a case laying here,
near by me..

[HarleyCreation]

"M" twin

Herb,
you made me sow surprised,that I drop my coffe copp.
when I read that racing engine starts with M,but is this the same
fore 2 cyl engine.beacuse then I know where there is a case laying here,
near by me..

I'm just glad it was only coffee cup you dropped and not primo dunkel Euro Bier.

Yes, "M" prefix for racing twins too -- at least some years.

Can you dig crankcase out of your treasure trove (junk pile) and give us the full VIN?

[glaser 31]

sad that is not mine crankcase,but I will go to him and see if I,first can buy it ore he will let me take some photos of it.It is only the crankcase with flywheels inside.Last I look on it,then I looked on the M,I didnt know what the letters stand fore.And I can mayby get some story about it,and its a early crankcase.
first the best thing I did in my life was to buy this harley many years ago,
when I was a kid. http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=scan0003.jpg the next thing was to collect harley parts...
here is a littel pile Herb http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=BILD0143.jpg
And next I will let my coffe stand on the tabel when I read here...

[HarleyCreation]

I think I got "M402J" figured out now for sure.

One thing about Harley-D: always good for a surprise!

PS: glaser. Rusty motorcycle junk in woods is always a turn-on.

[jurassic]

I don't know the year of this one. Obviously one cylinder blocked off. It is a Four Valve Head and an early bottom end.

[c.o.]

Jerry, I think I speak for a lot of people who love that era of motorcycle racing and general industry history and of course Maldwyn Jones. There must be a book there and you are certainly the one to write it. Maldwyn Jones and Erwin Baker directly witnessed more motorcycle history than anyone else that comes to mind; but M.J. seemed to be more aware of the importance of the people, machines, and places that he was associated with.

I would love to read such a book. Maldwyn was a fascinating character.

I second the motion. Jerry should compile the Maldwyn Jones's material into a book. He did a great service by preserving that archive and Jones was an interesting guy with his Merkel and other connections.

I'll third that motion!!!

Another guy who had a real inside track on the early Harley eight-valve and teens racing was Otto Walker. He was really in the thick of it, going from winning at Dodge City in 1915 on the pocket-valve to riding the first eight-valve at Chicago-Maywood in Sept. 1915 where he set that 100-mile board track record. He was tapped to ride the eight-valve at Dodge City in 1916 too, but was injured shortly before the race. He would have known how the term "Chicago Harley" originated.

Otto likely would have been able to answer a lot of the questions we have today. It's too bad that he left us nearly 50 years ago...... we'd likely have less to be curious about.

[c.o.]

I still have the audio tapes from the Maldwyn interview. I'm going to pursue having all my audio tapes digitized. What's a few hundred bucks when history hangs in the balance?

Would some of that audio have appeared in the "Glory Days" movie? I like your logic on the balance of history! I'd love to hear what he had to say in "his" own words!!!

[23JDCA 808]

Otto Walker

http://books.google.com/books?id=ld8...rcycle&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=wti...rcycle&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=mag...rcycle&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4gI...d=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#

http://books.google.com/books?id=yuI...rcycle&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Zc...=0CDMQ6AEwAzgy

...bill

[Jerry Hatfield]

Originally Posted by Jerry Hatfield

I still have the audio tapes from the Maldwyn interview. I'm going to pursue having all my audio tapes digitized. What's a few hundred bucks when history hangs in the balance?

Would some of that audio have appeared in the "Glory Days" movie? I like your logic on the balance of history! I'd love to hear what he had to say in "his" own words!!!
__________________
Cory Othen
Membership#10953

The "Glory Days" movie did not include any commentary from my interview with Maldwyn Jones. In my interview, he was commenting on the pictures and clippings in his scrapbooks. At around 90 years old, Maldwyn's voice was raspy and frail. There were long pauses. Sometimes the scrapbooks would remind him of something else, and we would go down that rabbit trail for a bit. The meat of the interview was great for research, but it would take a lot of patience for most listeners to hang in there. In that sense, the Maldwyn interview was much different from the Rollie Free interview. Free talked excitedly, passionately, and emphatically, like it all happened yesterday. But Rollie was "only" 80.

[HarleyCreation]

Looks like the Jones's Special went thru several variations c1916-'21 and the photo Chris posted may be one version along the way.

[HarleyCreation]

http://books.google.com/books?id=mag...rcycle&f=false

...bill

This one is esp. useful. Otto Walker at Sheepshead Bay board track in July 1917.

Eight-Valves banned from this race and Harley pocket-valve bragged up to no end. But no sign of term "Chicago Harley," altho it was def. used by 1919 for pocket-valve racing motor.

[HarleyCreation]

1915 eight-valve may be 1st bike, not last!

looking at the 15? and 16 side by side can tell a little about the clymer bike....

Lonnie,

Look at the top photo on p.38 of the Antique Motorcycle, (Summer, 2010) latest club mag. There the last bike in line is identified as being the 1915 eight-valve based on the orig. caption in MotorCycling mag. But Bruce Linsday thinks instead that Otto Walker on the eight-valve is the FIRST bike in line. The photo isn't very good but you can almost make out some details. Maybe it can help in your study of the key 1944 Clymer photo.

[HarleyCreation]

Jones's "M-402J" Harley code broken!

I was a little off in my previous interpretation of the Jones's Harley 4-V motor number "M-402J" but not by much.

That's because it is NOT stamped as a 1916 motor, but as a 1915 motor.

Yep!

I went back and studied 1915-'16 motor numbers and found this:

"J" suffix: 1915 singles
"K" suffix: 1915 doubles
"M" suffix: 1916 doubles
"L" suffix: 1916 singles

"J-K" (1915) and "M-L" (1916) are year codes!

It is 99% clear now what "M-402J" stands for:

"M" = racing motor
"402" = 3rd motor built in Four-Valve OHV series
"J" = a 1915 single (built on twin bottom)

Using this same system then a 1916 Four-Valve should be marked "M-400L" and an 1916 Eight-Valve likely as "M-800M"

Nice, eh?

This system only works for c1915-'16 multi-valves as in 1917 Harley-Davidson again changed its motor numbering system. We still need a 1915-'16 Eight-Valve number to see what the motor number range was, but I'm guessing it was "800" and up. If that's right, then Otto Walker's 1915 Harley Eight-Valve should have been marked: "M-800K."

Now, if we could just flip that 1944 Clymer photo "1915" Harley eight-valve bike around and take a gander at its motor number what would we find?

Thanks again to Jerry Hatfield for revealing and verifying this important Jones's Special 4-V motor number.

[schmittm]

Interpretatation & Documentation

Thanks Herb and thanks Jerry, you two guys are, in my opinion, the treasures of this club because you have taken the extra step to verify and document the history of this interest of ours. I hope that neither of you guys ever give up and that you continue to provide the information that you have always given us.
Thanks!
Mike

[Earl]

Hi Herbert,

I've got a set of cases that reads M525M for a motor number, and has matching belly numbers of 15113E