Repro Crankcase Number Stamps

[motorhead1]

How can this be legal?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harle...1%7C240%3A1318

[exeric]

I have no problem with number stamps if they are used legally (ethicly). The hard-line alternative is; destroy engine cases that don't have numbers, or engine cases with welded or machined engine bosses. The fact is, a lot of knuckleheads and panheads were (are) stolen. If the police didn't find them and they've been languishing in some moldy old basement for 30 years, and the numbers have been altered and no body knows who the original owner is. . . What do you do with it ? As I said before, the hard-line answer is destroy it. I know a lot of people get very righteous about this subject but I'll bet you none these people have ever smashed a set of knucklehead cases becuase they thought the case numbers looked bogus.

[darrylri]

And it's not just stolen items that are getting forged numbers. In the BMW world, there are four other popular reasons for forging numbers:

1) The R35 single, manufactured before and during the war, had a serial number that began with a 3. The Eisenach plant where it was built ended up in the Soviet zone, and almost immediately they began building more R35s, but with a serial number starting with 2. The early postwar bikes are otherwise indistinguishable from the prewar models because they were built from left over spares. If you could double a bike's market value by changing a 2 to a 3, would you? A lot of people do.

2) Almost from BMW's start in motorcycles, in 1923, each generation of bike came in a touring/utility sidevalve model and a sport OHV model. In the early models, there is very little different between them except the valve train, heads and valve covers, but in the late twenties through 1936, the OHV models began to have a number of differences inside the cases, even if most of the bikes' running gear was the same. In the last 5 years or so, repop manufacturers in eastern Europe have begun to reproduce the OHV valve train parts, including the distinctive heads and valve covers. This has led to a fair amount of restamping of engine numbers to put a formerly staid side valver into the sports OHV family, which makes the bike on average 4X more rare. A further trap: the frames had distinct numbers from the engines and BMW generally knows what motor went into each frame - information which they won't reveal. So the buyer needs to be very careful not to get a tarted up side valve motor in a frame numbered for a side valve (vs. the apparent OHV configuration).

3) Before BMW went to the single piece, "tunnel cast" crankcases in 1936, the two case halves were both stamped with the engine number, and there's also a pair of stampings across the seam from each other that indicate matching halves. Especially for the R12 model, there were a lot of bikes left over after the war, and to make a running bike, people mixed and matched parts. But if the case halves don't match, they will likely leak and the parts of the casting that clamp the main bearings may not be bored correctly. Still, it's easy to erase these numbers and forge the "right" ones.

4) When BMW supplied spare frames and spare crankcase parts, they came without numbers. The dealer was supposed to stamp the original number into the part and see to it that the original was destroyed. Naturally, this didn't always happen. It's also the case that during the war, BMW had large stocks of spares stored in Paris and perhaps other locations, and these frames and crankcases had no numbers on them. This makes it easier to forge a number at this late date.

There has been a strong demand in eastern Europe for sets of BMW's somehwat distinctive number stamps, and that need has apparently been filled. Caveat emptor!

[bmh]

I have seen much better sets on e-bay that would do all numbers, case half's and all, through the sixties. They seem to show up every few months. Personally I always figure that something like this is some sort of trap, set-up or sting.... basically a fishing trip. After all there is no legally legitimate reason for one to purchase and possess such things. The alteration of motor vehicle serial numbers by other than manufacturers, their agents and the DMV is and has always been Illegal. And remember conversations and such here in cyberspace leave a permanent impression. As for me, I avoid things if the numbers don't look every bit authentic. I've known bad things to happen to good folks because of things like that.

[exeric]

I agree Brian. I've owned a lot of Harleys and Indians and a good deal better include good engine numbers. I have a good story to go with looking the other way on bad numbers. I knew a fellow who had panhead fever and lots of money. He sought out good deals and didn't care about engine numbers. He did a lot of business with a very shady character who fed his lust for pans. The shady character got busted by the Feds and my acquaintance had the bogus numbered bikes confiscated by the Feds. My acquaintance was furious and agreed to give testimony against the crook. The crook got out on bail and found the right opportunity to shoot my acquaintance. Unlike the movies, getting shot is really bad for your health and this fellow never fully recoverd from the experience. I know people can be duped by a con man but a con works best on a person who thinks they're getting an exceptional deal. A legitimate deal may cost a few extra bucks but in the long run it's worth it.

In defense of my earlier statement, I still think there are exceptions.

[T. Cotten]

How can this be legal?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harle...1%7C240%3A1318

Dan!

Owning the tools is not illegal, but the act of using them to mis-represent a vehicle is a felony in nearly all States.

The vendor may have broken a law by promoting the illegal act, unless you consider the narrow loophole of re-stamping replacement cases upon surrender of the originals. None the less the act MUST be performed under the auspices of the legal authorities.

I have been collecting Millers Falls stamps for Indians, but my set is short.

...Cotten

[bmh]

So this has been puzzling me.....How do folks come up with the serial number they "restore" to an engine case? Most of the junk I see layin around in need of such service bear no trace of the original, some don't even have their belly numbers left. And if they did......so what. That just improves the guess? To look legitimate you would need to use something in the actual production range, I always check that if I think the number looks high for a year. So these numbers are pulled out of thin air..... what if it's your number???? If your bike hasn't been reported stolen and the other party is in another state chances are real good they will get a title. This can be the beginning of big trouble....one bike goes missing. Did your bike come with a definite chain of title or did you use a title company too? Odds are just as good Johnny Law finds you and yours as he does the stolen "fake", or you get a completely different bike back then the one you had stolen. Not to mention the effect on value. Imagine finding out your winners circle bike was just awarded a junior at the other side of the world. Yes the chances are slight...like everything else it's only illegal when you get caught holding the bag. Also, if you have no legitimate purpose for possessing certain things such as lock picking apparatus, or stamps in this case, they are illegal. They are considered implements of crime and show conspiracy to commit. I know you're innocent until proven otherwise, but trust me it will be up to you to prove that you are a "legitimate" shop and not a clearing house for stolen goods. Is absolutely everything else laying around 100% legit??? just a few thoughts of the day.

[BNSONS]

[QUOTE=bmh;78309] Also, if you have no legitimate purpose for possessing certain things such as lock picking apparatus, or stamps in this case, they are illegal. They are considered implements of crime and show conspiracy to commit.

Well I agree with lock picking apparatus being illegal. But stamps are used for numerous applications. Such as when taking a certified welding test you stamp your weld coupon. When working on a high-rise story jobs sometimes you're required to stamp your assigned number on the column splice you just welded. And these are just a few items that I was required to do. I'm sure there are many more reasons that require having stamps. Stamps are not illegal just like guns it's what you do with them will get you in trouble.
Dave

[kval]

Imagine finding out your winners circle bike was just awarded a junior at the other side of the world. Yes the chances are slight..

this will not happen in AMCA judging. I have set the program not to accept duplicate numbers. it doesen't even care if the make of bike is the same or different, the numbers can not be repeated. tried to think of everything

[darrylri]

this will not happen in AMCA judging. I have set the program not to accept duplicate numbers. it doesen't even care if the make of bike is the same or different, the numbers can not be repeated. tried to think of everything

That's a pretty curious decision. I don't know anything about Harleys and Indians, but I do know that BMW repeated the use of serial numbers.

The 1935-1941 R12 serial numbers run from 501-37161. This overlaps the serial number ranges of the R32 (31000-34100), R37 (35001-35175), R39 (36000-36900), and R2 (101-14816).

Nobody familiar with prewar BMWs would mistake an R12 frame for any of the others (it was made from rivetted pressed steel for a 750cc twin motor and the others are all brazed tube frames, except the R2, which is a single), but your program doesn't know that.

[kval]

That's a pretty curious decision. I don't know anything about Harleys and Indians, but I do know that BMW repeated the use of serial numbers.

The 1935-1941 R12 serial numbers run from 501-37161. This overlaps the serial number ranges of the R32 (31000-34100), R37 (35001-35175), R39 (36000-36900), and R2 (101-14816).

Nobody familiar with prewar BMWs would mistake an R12 frame for any of the others (it was made from rivetted pressed steel for a 750cc twin motor and the others are all brazed tube frames, except the R2, which is a single), but your program doesn't know that.

if we run into this, we will just put the model number (R32 etc) in front of the serial number. just like Harley did (35E1234) and that will make it unique

[Barry Brown]

[QUOTE=darrylri;78318]That's a pretty curious decision. I don't know anything about Harleys and Indians, but I do know that BMW repeated the use of serial numbers.

The 1935-1941 R12 serial numbers run from 501-37161. This overlaps the serial number ranges of the R32 (31000-34100), R37 (35001-35175), R39 (36000-36900), and R2 (101-14816).

Nobody familiar with prewar BMWs would mistake an R12 frame for any of the others (it was made from rivetted pressed steel for a 750cc twin motor and the others are all brazed tube frames, except the R2, which is a single), but your program doesn't know that.

don't forget the r11 and r16 which both has pressed steel frames. did you know the technology for this was licensed from the American 'Budd" corporation? They also licensed Andre Citroen to produce the "Traction Avant" which was the first all stamped steel front wheel drive mass produced car in the world in 1932. I have an original 1929 BMW sales brochure in English introducing the "Golden Arrow" r16 750 ohv. Interestingly at the bottom of the page describing the new fangled pressed steel frame is a statement that the purchaser on request could order an r16 with the older style welded up frame! I wonder if any were. Sorry for the diversion, just thought you might find this interesting.

[Robert Luland]

I have seen much better sets on e-bay that would do all numbers, case half's and all, through the sixties. They seem to show up every few months. Personally I always figure that something like this is some sort of trap, set-up or sting.... basically a fishing trip. After all there is no legally legitimate reason for one to purchase and possess such things. The alteration of motor vehicle serial numbers by other than manufacturers, their agents and the DMV is and has always been Illegal. And remember conversations and such here in cyberspace leave a permanent impression. As for me, I avoid things if the numbers don't look every bit authentic. I've known bad things to happen to good folks because of things like that.

Brian there’s legitimate reasons for possessing the stamps. I will make attempt to explain. I look for blown cases all the time. I don’t care if they have good paper or a bill of sale to go with them. I’m not naive here. I know I’m taking a chance on being burned but I’ve never been screwed to date. Now on the other side. I also look for screwed up cases. Numbers stamped wrong (Mutilated) or ground down pads. Was there a crime involved twenty or thirty years earlier? Probably yes but I didn’t have a rats ass to do with it! There’s nothing wrong with bringing a piece of history back to life. Build up a pad and mill it off and blast it. Stamp away. I legally own the number I'm stamping into that case. Bob

[Chris Haynes]

In California here is how it works.
Quoted from the California Vehicle Code Section 19751.

Manufacturers' Serial or Identification Numbers
10751. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's number..

(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction. No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure. This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding. Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.

(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b). The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d).

(d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve as a receipt and contain the following information:

(1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized.

(2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a determination that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component part, if no other person claims an interest in the property; otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall take place in the proper court.

(3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure.

(4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented.

(5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle Code.

(e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by the superior court within 90 days after the seizure. The hearing shall be before the court without a jury. A proceeding under this section is a limited civil case.

(1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the person entitled thereto. Nothing in this section precludes the return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.

(2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court order.

(3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of establishing that the serial or identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented.

(f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners.

[Robert Luland]

And your point Chris other than posting anything and everything wether it's right, wrong or makes no sense at all. I mean do you just post to be heard or have nothing better to do. It gets tiring. Who the F--K cares how it's done in LA, La land.