Repro Crankcase Number Stamps

[Chris Haynes]

I am sure that if you check the laws in all states they will have laws forbidding altered serial numbers. You can lose your vehicle for having altered numbers on it. If the man gets really pissy you can lose your home if it is found there. I feel this is important information for those who may not be aware of it.

Of course your attitude may be different.

By the way. I found this in the New Jersey books.
a. A person who removes, defaces, alters, changes, destroys, covers or obliterates any trademark, distinguishing or identification number, serial number or mark on or from any motor vehicle for an unlawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

b. A person who for an unlawful purpose knowingly possesses any motor vehicle, or any of the parts thereof, from or on which any trademark, distinguishing or identification number, or serial number or mark has been removed, covered, altered, changed, defaced, destroyed or obliterated, is guilty of an offense, unless, within 10 days after the motor vehicle or any part thereof shall have come into his possession, he files with the Director of the Division of Motor Vehicles in the Department of Law and Public Safety a verified statement showing: the source of his title, the proper trademark, identification or distinguishing number, or serial number or mark, if known, and if known, the manner of and reason for the mutilation, change, alteration, concealment or defacement, the length of time the motor vehicle or part has been held and the price paid therefor.

If the value of the motor vehicle or parts possessed exceeds $500.00 the offense is a crime of the third degree; if the value is at least $200.00 but does not exceed $500.00 it is a crime of the fourth degree; if the value is less than $200.00 it is a disorderly persons offense.

c. As used in this section, "motor vehicle" includes motor bicycles, motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, tractors or other vehicles designed to be self-propelled by mechanical power, and otherwise than by muscular power, except motor vehicles running upon or guided by rails or tracks.

L.1983, c. 351, s. 1, eff. Sept. 29, 1983.

[RichO]

Key word, unlawful.

[bmh]

Brian there’s legitimate reasons for possessing the stamps. I will make attempt to explain. I look for blown cases all the time. I don’t care if they have good paper or a bill of sale to go with them. I’m not naive here. I know I’m taking a chance on being burned but I’ve never been screwed to date. Now on the other side. I also look for screwed up cases. Numbers stamped wrong (Mutilated) or ground down pads. Was there a crime involved twenty or thirty years earlier? Probably yes but I didn’t have a rats ass to do with it! There’s nothing wrong with bringing a piece of history back to life. Build up a pad and mill it off and blast it. Stamp away. I legally own the number I'm stamping into that case. Bob

So how do you legally own the number? Why not repair the case that number belongs to? You must have that case to be in legal possession of said property. Do you alter the case half production numbers so they will be a match as well? Are you really preserving history or making it fit your wants? All they need to find is one altered or obliterated case in your shop along with a set of stamps and you just went from possession of stolen goods to distribution and a whole host of other charges. That's the difference between being out a few $100 bills and losing everything you own. No matter the odds, those are some high stakes. And lets be clear we are not referencing general number and letter stamps as used in general welding and repair, we are discussing stamps of a particular size and font which would be used to alter VIN's.

[Robert Luland]

Brian the cases I talking about are junk to start with. If you happened to come across a left case that through a rod and the bottom is blown out but the owner tells you the vin still good and has the paper to go with it. You’re not going to throw it in a garbage can are ya? I get it and apply for a title. Now I got three choices. 1. Go to one of the aftermarket venders and get a replacement and stamp the number in. 2. Find a OEM case that at one time met a ill fate (By the way go around a swap meet some time and look at the bottom of cases and see how many still have belly numbers) or 3. Take Chris’s advice and go down to my local state police and go though the bulls—t of having my hemorrhoids put under a microscope. They will give a new state vin and in some states will even rivet a steel plate to your frame. My now recovered 52 per say is 2009. The value is destroyed and I got to have turn signals and a front brake light switch. I done nothing wrong but try to put a piece of history back on the road. No I have not furthered the dark underside of motorcycle theft. The hunt for the case is half the fun. If stamping your vin (Property) is all that bad you’d better go and start locking up Harley dealers all over the world. There is one more possibility. About every couple of years a factory replacement case will show up on fleese-bay. If ya a big bank account go for it. You guys will have no problem spoting me at Oley. I'll be the guy with the five case with a rope though them slung over my shoulder or ya can just look for the yellow canapy that says Con Ed. Bob

[darrylri]

if we run into this, we will just put the model number (R32 etc) in front of the serial number. just like Harley did (35E1234) and that will make it unique

D'Oh! Excellent solution.

I guess I took you at your statement "doesn't even care if the make of bike is the same or different" too far.

[Chris Haynes]

Key word, unlawful.

Yup, that is the word. I would like someone to explain to me when altering a manufacturers serial number is lawful. By someone I mean someone from the State Department of Motor Vehicles.
I know that in many places altering a number was done as a matter of convenience. In 1971 I stood in the shop of Doc's H-D in MO and watched a mechanic pull an early Shovel motor from a Police bike. He placed it on a bench next to a freshly rebuilt engine and transferred the number from the old to the new and bolted it into the bike. This he considered legal and it saved the customer time. Of course if John Law finds this machine today it would be impounded until its legal status could be determined. Acid and newer technologies will bring out the old number. The line bore number will tell you the original serial number. But "What If" the original number under this tattoo got stolen years after the swap was done? TROUBLE with a capitol "T".
It really isn't worth the gamble to mess with altered numbers.

[RichO]

Chris, Chris, Chris

Nowhere did I make a statement that altering a serial number was legal. In fact I was agreeing with your post that it was illegal. "Key word illegal, unlawful". I have though seen many legal cases that the numbers were moved from non-repairable, legally owned and papered cases to replacement cases that were restamped with those legal numbers. Many done on factory replacement cases done by factory dealers. Many were earlier (pre-42 cases w/short ribs) that cracked beyond repair. Those replacement cases didn't even come from the factory w/ bottom numbers. I don't appreciate the tone of your past statement of your misinterpation of my previous statement. I look forward to our meeting in the future.

[Chris Haynes]

Rich,
I was simply carrying on with your statement. Not disagreeing with it.

[23JDCA 808]

Here is a set of number punches on eBay. I have no connection with this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=390191957763

[Paps]

Even if those stamps were legal to use, I wouldn't buy anything from that A hole seller. He uses another username on ebay also. The worm sold nos wla guide headlights which he stated as nos wla. The lights turned out to be for 4 wheeled machinery. I know this because I know the fella he sold one to. I He told this fella it was the last one out of the batch that he had. The fella gave out $300 for the light to get it. Seller sold at least another dozen on ebay afterwards ! I also saw the light first hand. It was never manufactured as a wla light ! When this fella approached this seller, he was a real A Hole about the item and banned him from buying. Not only did he ban him, his mouthy replies have earned him a solid punch in his mouth if he ever runs across him face to face. It puzzles me that this seller actually auctions off some nice stuff here and there, yet he pushes repop as oem to some, ships won items if and when he damn well pleases, and treats anyone whom confronts him on his shady deals with vulgar mouthed sentences. He bans all who confront him.

[Rubone]

Paps,
Interesting info on that seller. I bought a neck lock from him in an original B&S package. It was actually a Taiwan Ted repro. And he didn't even bother to remove the the instruction sheet! He did refund my money begrudgingly. As far as being banned I don't know since I will never even look at something when I see either of his names on an item!
Sorry for the hijack guys!
Robbie

[Robert Luland]

I also bought a neck from him in the original box but it was the real deal right down to the keys. He’s a weird cookie. I’m close enough to him to ring his neck. That might play into it. Bob L

[Paps]

Yep...I said he had some nice items. He uses "hanasdad2" to push his stuff also. I also didn't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to warn anyone considering dealing with him.

[T. Cotten]

Fonts changed in mid-'37, so those stamps are mis-represented.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Yep...I said he had some nice items. He uses "hanasdad2" to push his stuff also. I also didn't mean to hijack the thread but wanted to warn anyone considering dealing with him.

Oh! You mean the buttwipe who tries to pass of scans of H-D literature as the real deal.