Conclusion to the Thread Color Soap Opera

[LarryHeil]

Two different logos on one seat?

That is very interesting, the latest photo from Chris shows a Mesinger logo. The first photo of the other side showed a HD logo. Also this looks to be a Mesinger logo from a No.3. See the circle in the center ? It looks like a 3. Should be a 1. And compare with the logos on my original seat photos, there is a "Made in U S A" on either side of the circle and number which in not in Chris's latest photo.

[jmanjeff]

Chris pics are of two different bikes as you can tell be the seat springs

[Tommo]

Larry,
Both my bikes came to NZ direct from the factory in 1918 and 1920 respectively. They were purchased by us directly off the original owners so they are effectively two owner machines and I can document their full history from new.

[Tommo]

Michael,
Even though my 18 seat is now 90 years old it is in very good condition and looks just like the one in the photo Chris posted, wrinkles and all. Same goes for the one on the 1920 but no rivit in any of 6 seats though.
I thought I'd better have a look at all my spare saddles and see if they could help to solve this and lo and behold a Persons saddle with the H.D. logo on it in the middle at the back. This saddle is in very poor condition but I will try and photograph it and get someone to try and put it up on the forum for me.
So 2 Persons one with the HD logo, 3 Troxels but no HD logo and another 3 Messingers with one having the HD logo.
All the 6 Messingers in my collection seem to have that wrinkle or loose leather on the side about mid curve but bear in mind that these are well used saddles.
I also looked at all my Half pan Messingers, 14 of them, but none of them were stamped with the HD logo.
I don't know if this helps or just muddies the water a bit more.

[LarryHeil]

Now there is a new area of discussion, Logos

Thanks Peter. can you be any help on the thread color controversy?? You have a very large collection of seats. As to the "correct logo' issue, it seems that your collection might say that different logos were used at different times and it is probably next to impossible to have one right answer. Another thing that "muddies" the waters is that MC dealers would often change the "factory" seat for another brand. This was fairly easy during the early years of motorcycles (1906--1920s aprox.) because it was a quick bolt on exchange.

[Paquette]

Tommo,
It's great to see you back on the forum!!! I hope your health is back up to par. I would expect all the saddles you have to look old, but the one pictured in the factory photo should be brand new and just looks like is is badly made. I guess it just goes to show that any saddlemaker can have a bad day.Also, there seems to be a misconception about factory bikes and saddles. H-D did not offer just one saddle per model year. In 1914--15 they show the Troxel No. 1, No. 3, and the Trueform. 1921 it was Mesinger Air Cushion N0. 2, Troxel Motorbike N0. 2, Troxel Easy Special Saddle, and the Troxel Tip-Top. 1927 the Mesinger Air Cushion, Mesinger Cushion Suspention No. 3, and the Mesinger Single Saddle, etc, etc. None of these are shown in accessory catalogs with an H-D logo but as far as that issue goes, the proof is in seeing.However, as far as the thread color on these old seats, a definitive answer will not be found just by looking at them, it is when you take one apart that you tend to see the true color especially on saddles made after 1933 which is still problematic as Mesinger used a single binding construction vs the double binding used by Milsco, and there is more protected thread. The problem is the color retention quality of the thread itself. When I visited the H-D archive a few years ago, they had a collection of lightweight bikes from 48--the 60's. None had ever left the factory and all the mileage on the speedos were from being rolled around from place to place. All the seats appeared to have white thread but upon closer inspection, it was indeed black, as the production drawings show. I will now leave these issues for others to discuss as I have a book to finish--Michael Paquette--6671

[servicardenise]

I know that when leather is treated with snow seal which is like a clear wax it turns the stitching on my natural leather ropers about beige. It works wonders for preserving and moisturizing leather and gives the natural patina leather should have when it wears and ages normally. I swear by the stuff for keeping leather nice. Denise

[Paquette]

Denise--With all due respect, Sno -Seal while fine for your boots, is one of the worst products you can use for vintage saddles or bags. That product as well as neetsfoot, baby, sheeps or other oils simply seal the leather and while fine for your Roper boots, tends to seal leather and not allow it to breathe. Glycerene soaks, Lexol, and Fiebings leather balm with Atom wax are by far, the best way to treat old motorcycle leather. Leather while seeming to be dead is alive and needs to breathe, boots not withstanding---M-6671

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, another confusion might come from the factory stored bikes. The 1934, 1935 and 1936 VLs in the archive all have brown seats, while the 1934 literature announcing the new full pan seat described them as black. This seat was soon given the 3181-25 part number as it superseded the Mesinger half pan seat and fitted back to '25. This solo seat continued in production for many years, so new-old-stock seats were available until recent times. A number of the stored Harleys lost toolboxes, and I guess seats, during the AMF years when they were said to be racked up in an unheated shed. They still carry some scraped paintwork and creased fenders from careless storage. My guess is the bikes were tidied up with replacement parts manufactured perhaps fifty years later, which are not the ones originally fitted. That is why unrestored bikes with the original parts still in formation are so treasured by our Club.

[Chris Haynes]

Also a some time ago some jerkoff decided to "RESTORE" the bikes in the collection. They didn't like the fact that these original paint machines has a few dings and scratches on them. Many got repainted. New tires and restored wheels. New chrome plating. Only whoever did it didn't know there was a difference between parts. So now they have pre 1940 bikes with later hubs and post 1939 bikes with early stepped hubs. They didn't know the diffference in wheel lug bolts either as these are all mixed up. Some people just don't know when to leave something alone. :-(

[Tommo]

Larry,
I've had as good a look, as my old eyes allow me to, at the thread colour on all my seats but I don't think any of them are good enough to give an answer as to exactly what colour thread has been used.
Now please don't take this next comment as a "dead cert" identification answer as it is only posted to try and help by using the seats I have.
Both Troxels do appear to have a very light coloured thread that would be bordering on being white but all the rest, both Messingers and Persons, have thread colour that appears to be of a dark colour. Whether this dark colour is from dirt and grime or from dye I don't know but it definately doesn't look like the light coloured thread on the Troxels.
The Messingers that are in above average condition do have varying shades of brown as to the colour of the saddle top, from light brown to a dark tan, and if you put them side by side the colour difference would be quite pronounced. Just by using my seats I think it would be a brave man who said that such and such a colour shade was correct and that another was wrong.
Hope this helps.

[marcina1974]

Hi guys

I have in my shed genuine leather for mesinger#1 with HD logo
looks exactly as my other with Mes logo except for stamp
both are brown/tan but each is different
stiching is just to old and dirty so might be of any colour
for anyone interested in HD-logo seat contact me offline at:
oklaszeski @ gmail.com
remove spaces from email
MOA

[Chris Haynes]

This is great. I love to see documentation come forth.

[INLINE4NUT]

Chris so true ! Only thing I have never understood if something is 50,60 years old is it possible to tell what it EXACTLY looked like all those years ago !!! Something to think about huh !

[Chris Haynes]

Chris so true ! Only thing I have never understood if something is 50,60 years old is it possible to tell what it EXACTLY looked like all those years ago !!! Something to think about huh !

That is why factory photos are soooo valuable.