Conclusion to the Thread Color Soap Opera

[Mark Arnould]

After reviewing some of Michael Paquette's factory production drawings (1937-1941) they do state that black or brown lin. threads were used. I was extremely surprised that the 1940 WR Racers were sewn with Black Nylon. I didn't even know nylon thread was availible in 1940. After doing a little research on my own. I found out that nylon thread became commecially availible in 1940. I haven't seen anything on the post war years (46-52) he claims the drawings state the same black thread. I would like to see those drawings as well. But, I'm not doubting him at this point. As far as the Early Messingers. I haven't seen any proof one way or another on thread color. I've even looked up several pattens, done alittle research and have turned up nothing. Hopefully someone will have something concrete on that.
After spending probably a few hours with Michael on the phone. I have to say they were right saying he's a really nice guy. Myself, I'll add he is also very knowledgable in the seat business and has done alot of home work. I've been in the seat business longer than anyone out there and don't say that loosely. I am looking forward to reveiwing his book when it comes out. In the mean time, we're all continue to strive to better the craft and our products.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnoulds Saddlery

[Chris Haynes]

Now that is a great attitude. A man who has an open mind and is willing to learn.

Here is a factory photo of a 1920, Messinger I believe, seat. Notice the dark colored thread?

[T. Cotten]

Chris!

It appears the same color as the seat.

What color is the seat?

....Cotten

[exeric]

It's deffinately not black. I have a 1920 J so I'm an interested party. Thanks for posting the picture Chris.

[Mark Arnould]

Now that is a great attitude. A man who has an open mind and is willing to learn.

Here is a factory photo of a 1920, Messinger I believe, seat. Notice the dark colored thread?

I've never seen an original Messinger with a Harley logo on it. Nor have I ever seen such a clean crisp 1920 photo

[LarryHeil]

An original Mesinger No.1 photos

Saddles by Heilman is not "in love" with white thread. I will be glad to use whatever color the customer wants. However, I would like to be as authentic as possible.
Here are some photos of a 1920 HD Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1. My father was given this saddle by Ray Schlee, a restoration expert at the HD museum. This same year (1990) my father made 25 reproduction saddles for Ray and HD.
This saddle was on a motorcycle that was kept in the hallway at HD in Milwakee for years and then has been on a shelf at my father's house ever since.
The thread is a bit dirty, but when pulled out of the leather where is has been protected it is an off white.
Notice the Mesinger logo, not an HD logo. After hundreds of original Mesinger No.1s we have never seen one with a Harley logo.
On the photo Chris posted, notice the rivet below the HD logo. My father and I have never seen this on any other Mesinger No.1. Also the edge treatment and general construction of this saddle is not the same as the original Messingers that we have seen.

[Chris Haynes]

Saddles by Heilman is not "in love" with white thread. I will be glad to use whatever color the customer wants. However, I would like to be as authentic as possible.
Here are some photos of a 1920 HD Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1. My father was given this saddle by Ray Schlee, a restoration expert at the HD museum. This same year (1990) my father made 25 reproduction saddles for Ray and HD.
This saddle was on a motorcycle that was kept in the hallway at HD in Milwakee for years and then has been on a shelf at my father's house ever since.
The thread is a bit dirty, but when pulled out of the leather where is has been protected it is an off white.
Notice the Mesinger logo, not an HD logo. After hundreds of original Mesinger No.1s we have never seen one with a Harley logo.
On the photo Chris posted, notice the rivet below the HD logo. My father and I have never seen this on any other Mesinger No.1. Also the edge treatment and general construction of this saddle is not the same as the original Messingers that we have seen.

Well, You you have seen it now. Perhaps Ray gave your dad the seat because it was not correct for the bike it was on.

[Chris Haynes]

Chris!

It appears the same color as the seat.

What color is the seat?

....Cotten

It is hard to tell the exact color. But it definately isn't white.

[jmanjeff]

Don't need the thread color war to start up again, i don't think that is why Mark Arnould started this post

[Chris Haynes]

There is no war. Just information being exchanged.

[Paquette]

I was not going to reply to this thread as I thought no reply was needed. But after seeing some of the posts, I am once again getting quite disgusted with the tone so here goes. Mark, thank you for taking the time to look at the repesentitive drawings that I sent you and for understanding that I cannot send copies of the 50 + drawings to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that has a question about the dreaded "THREAD COLOR ISSUE". After discussions with Mark, I have come to realize that he is as interested in his craft as I am. He is quite a learned man in our proffesion and I enjoyed our conversations as well as our pledge to provide our customers and friends ( one does not do this type of work without the result that our customers become our friends) with the best, most accurate reproductions that can be had. That said, Chris the photo you posted of the Mesinger seat is an abomination. While the thread colors tend to agree with my argument about thread color, the seat is a piece of crap. Look at the loose thread and the wrinkles in the leather plus I have to agree with Mark that I have never, ever, seen any H-D seat with a MoCo Logo. Perhaps this was a prototype Mesinger made for H-D for the Pholman Photos but I have not seen production saddles with this stamp. I hope this will end this thread as all Mark and I are trying to do is present the hard evidence as we see it and to put an end to this useless "Pissing Contest". There are many more important issues with seats than just the thread color--- Michael Paquette--AMCA 6671

[Tommo]

I'm backing Chris on this one as both my 1918 and 1920 have the H.D. logo on the seats but they don't have the rivit. Both seats are unrestored originals and are brown leather but I'm not going to enter the thread colour thing as there's nothing that is good enough on them to give a definitive answer.
My 1920 flat twin has the identical seat fitted but has the Messinger logo stamped on it so maybe both were available or maybe replacement saddles were sold with the Messinger logo and OEM had the H.D. logo seat.
Years ago Dad and I talked to someone from the HD factory about the Weston ammeter faces and why some had H.D. on them and some didn't. The explanation was that if the ammeter was fitted at the factory it had a H.D. face and if you bought one as an accessory it didn't so maybe the seats were the same.

[LarryHeil]

HD logo

My father had heard that some Export Harleys had the HD shield logo on the seat, but all U.S. models used the Mesinger Logo. We have never seen any of these export model seats. All the ones he received form the HD museum had the Mesinger logo.
We have restored many 20s HD Mes No.1 seats from Australia, but these may have been U.S. models shipped to Australia many years later.
It would be nice if you could verifiy if your HDs were original exports.
Thanks for new info

[Chris Haynes]

Here is the flip side of that same seat. Same crappy stiching. But no rivet. Is that actually a rivet or a spot on the negative?

[T. Cotten]

Chris!

I wouldn't call the thread color in your pic white either; No more than calling the seat white.
But that goes for black as well.
I'm glad I'm not in the saddlery business!

Often the rest of us in the 'industry' ask ourselves: What do we do about apparently authentic hardware that does not fit the scripture?

.....Cotten