Ode to the 25 Year Rule

[AdminGuy]

Well said.

I think you can almost build a Brough from repop spares now. Go figure. I love the speedos on them. Very neat multi-function unit.

Yup - different strokes for different folks. And I guess we should consider what will be happening in the club in 50 years.

Will people be buying gas from the last refinery in Mexico for 50 bucks a gallon? Will people be hauling in tankers for road runs?

Will portable Cad/Cam plastic injection machines be repoping one off plastic parts on demand at meets? Maybe? ...Yuck.

I see no point in continueing with the 35yr rule. I think the major import of Brit bikes was from 49-51 and from 66-70. We are already pretty deep into it.
The Japanese clubs are also pretty well established.

In my mind the club will continue to be dominated by H-D, Ind, AM bike club. Maybe I'm wrong. The classic stuff should be encouraged as it is a starting point that will get people out, in and moving up.

That Honda four enthusiast over time -could turn into a Henderson Four enthusiast. Education is the key.

Ohhhhhh ya, And the dads always end up doing 90 percent of the work anyhow. The kid gets to bolt the cycl. head on, kick it over and ride it.

[markd]

Re: Re 25 vs 35 years

Originally posted by Pete Gagan
Just one final thought on the 35 year thing- we have a tendency to concentrate on the bikes rather than the people. A few of us, myself included, collect and restore motorcycles for historic or curatorial reasons, and therefore have some really ancient devices made when our grandfathers were young. Most of us though, are nostalgic collectors and riders, and lust after the machines we had, or wish we had when we were young. If you fall into the latter category, and it's to be a bike 35 years old or older, you have to be pushing 60 to be elegible to join the AMCA. Lowering the machine age bar will welcome younger members.

I am a new member to this board and I have to agree with this analysis. Oneof the bikes I own is a 1969 BMW R60US. When I started riding in 69, I could afford only Honda 350's. But in the BMW dealer next doors window was this Bavarian creme R60US. I would look at that bike every time I brought my Honda in for service and think "One day I will be able to aford one of those". 25 years later, I saw one just like that one and bought it. It represented what a motorcycle should look like - at least in my minds eye.
Mark

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Same Bike.....Different Year....

Interesting to me is the fact that my '74' Iron Head Sportster is, with the exception of a few part modifications, the same motorcycle as that of the '68'!... actually the '57'!! ...Same Crankshaft/Rods and Rear Wheel to name a few...The most drastic changes being the Evo Sportster motor itself in the Eighties! I'd always thought that the 35 Year Rule was a bit unrealistic. Most of the Antique and Classic Car and Motorcycle Club's have a 25 Year Rule. The 25 Year Rule will allow you to gather parts that are more readily available at lower cost. This in itself will likely get more older bikes up and running sooner, and likely have them appreciated more by the general motorcycling Public to allow them to remain in a higher state of preservation. I hope to keep this thread current up till the Vote mentioned by Pete Gagan. If your reading this and haven't commented, please do so! For or against...Interesting to Note also is that in the world of Antique collecting.....A True Antique is at least 100 Years old!!....everything else are considered 'Collectibles'!.... ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

OK, you guys have stirred me up enough to register so I can reply. I think the 35 year rule is fine as it is. As a young boy I had to walk past the Royal Enfield shop on my way to school. I was impressed enough to develop an interest in British cycles that I still have today, but I don't feel a need to see more of them at AMCA events. There are plenty of British cycle events already out there. At 47 years old I grew up when the jap bikes were at their best. My friends all started riding on early to mid-seventies Hondas and Suzukis. I had little interest in them then and little interest in them now. I always liked the really old stuff. I have a few motorcycles and the nicest ones are less than 35 years old but I'm patient enough to wait out the 35 year rule for them. I only attend the Oley and Wauseon events but I don't see them lacking participants. Would a large influx of Japanese and British bikes and parts make these events better? I can't see how. I don't like the idea of having to search past boxes of Honda parts to find the Indian stuff. Even with the 35 year rule these events have been growing. Knocking 10 years off may even cause overcrowding. We need to keep in mind that it's a rolling 35 year rule and all these bikes will eventually have their day in the sun. Patience.

[markd]

Kojak, My intent is not that an large influx of Japanese - or any other type of bike - suddenly start appearing at the different meets.

However, I do believe that to keep any interest, or group of people interested in similar things, fresh and vital that new members are always to be encouraged.

You are correct, my 69 Beemer will meet the 35 year rule next year. Not the point. The point is are there ways AMCA should be exploring to get new generations of riders and collectors involved. The age rule is just an obvious starting point of discussion.
Mark

[Kojack]

Markd, that may not be your intent but it would probably happen. Not only will your BMW be eligible next year, a bunch of Japanese bikes including the 350 Hondas you mention (excellant starter bikes by the way) will be having their 35th birthdays. My thinking is that motorcycle sales sharply increased in the late 60s and 70s. Even with the 35 year rule there is going to be a big increase in eligible motorcycles in the next few years. This isn't the time to blow up the dam. I also disagree that the supply of old American bikes is almost gone. I'm always coming across old Sportsters that need restored and how about the Indian verticals? They're not all that expensive. There are still some deals out there on Harley 45s. I've always felt that finding an old bike is half the fun.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

The More Things Change...The More They Remain The Same....

Kojack, I agrree that their won't be any shortage of Harley Sportsters to restore any time soon, but why would you want to restore a 60's/70's Iron Head Sportster anyway?? They certainly aren't 'Antique' but rather Classic/Modern! Antigue Motorcycles ended in the 1950's. Certainly by 1965 max! I think as we enter the 1970's, most guys aren't looking to restore Sportsters to 'Factory' specs. The possible exception would likely be those 'Odd-Ball' Sportster off-road models of the early sixties and the K-models of the fifities. The Sportster is a true American Hot Rod!! A good running 'modified' Sportster with the latest up-dates and High performance parts will command as much or more money then a restored one! But I guess if you really must restore... As for me AMF decals will never be part of any of my paint jobs (even though I recognize that AMF did save H-D from extinction!) Ha, Ha!! I think our Club should expand its acceptance of these 'Modifieds' and 'Choppers' Era Motorcycles. Simply adding 1 Year per annum doesn't make for another true 'Antique' Motorcycle any more. The advant of disc brakes, electric start, directionals. etc, ushers in the 'Classic/Modern' Era. I think one of our tasks as a 'Motorcycle Club' should be to find a place for these bikes to Show/Display/Participate within the AMCA.....Enter the changes such as the 25 Year Rule. The 25 year Rule will not affect the earlier more expensive true 'Antique' motorcycles. Not likely you'd get a diehard 30's Indian/Harley collector/restorer interested in the newer bikes. But what it will likely accomplish is to allow a good influx of fairly affordable machines of various Makes and Models and their parts to our Members both current and future. It'll get these 'Classic/Modern' bikes off to a good start in regards to bringing out the parts for trading/sellling/collecting while they're still fairly easy to get. Of course 'Supply and Demand' will dictate how the Japanese bikes of the 70's will fair in the AMCA. After all the 'A' in AMCA doesn't stand for 'American Made' only. We should encourage ALL makes of motorcycle participation, even if we personally don't care for them. They'll never interefer with the true 'Antique' (READ: EXPENSIVE!!) motorcycles that are definitely becoming harder to find. And yes I believe they are getting rare. Sure, you can piece an old bike together from parts but its still not an 'Original' whole bike. I think the 25 Year Rule's time has arrived. 'Antique and "Classic" Motorcycle Club of America' ?? Sounds good to me!!....... ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

I still don't see a need for changing to the "Antique and Classic( /Modern ) Motorcycle Club of America." I don't see that making these machines and parts available to our members is an issue. I'm a member and I have no problem finding these machines and parts without the AMCA. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting them. I attend about 6-8 local swap meets a year as both a vendor and buyer and believe me, the later stuff is out there. Nor do I think it's our club's task to find a place for them within the AMCA. In my opinion they're just not old enough to warrant the special interest that this club was formed to cater to. I'm more concerned that AMCA events will just become plain ordinary bike rallys. I've been to a few of the AMA's "Vintage Days" and it's turned into just the kind of event you speak of. I quit going, Wauseon is more my type of event even though it's a longer trip for me. I'd actually be more in support of a non-rolling age rule. Perhaps make a permanent cut off date of around 1970 for any AMCA related event. Let the Vintage Japanese club take care of their business and let the British clubs take care of theirs. Smaller more focused clubs and events seem, to me, better suited to take care of their members needs. Some people seem concerned that as the years go on interest will wane in the antique bikes. I don't see it happening. Last I heard, the AMCA was still growing. The members may age and pass on but the bikes won't evaporate. Someone else will take over custody and keep them going. (NOTE: anyone out there that wants to give up custody, please call me.)
I enjoyed your comments on Sportsters and mostly agree. I do feel that pre 1979 Sportsters are some of the most beautiful American bikes ever made and deserve to be restored, at least kept close to original appearance. '79 and later Sportsters were forced on us by communist activists and should be modified, chopped or crushed as often as possible. I currently own a '52 K project, a '75, an '81 and a clean '78 Anniversery Edition.
All my riders have been AMF era Harleys. Sometimes I feel left out, I've never had any problems with them. Evidently, everyone else has. Willie G. was quoted in one book as saying that Harley had serious quality control problems when AMF took over, not just after. AMF had the deep pockets that kept Harley going and allowed Harley to adopt a lot of modern manufacturing techniques and practices, though not without problems. Keep in mind, Detroit wasn't having it's best years in the early 70s either. AMF: American Machine and Foundry. No mention of bowling balls, is there?

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Kojack, just the mere yearly addition of motorcycles will eventually bring even the 'EVO' Harleys into the 'Antique' MCA, but unless we go to all Electric and Hrydrogen powered motorcycles, I can't see ever calling these bikes 'Antiques'. I think the 35 Year Rule should be used as a 'Rule of Thumb' and not a 'Absolute' Rule. We all know that True 'Antique' motorcycles ended in the Early Sixties (at the Latest!) I'm not touting changing the name of the Club. No need for that. Just recognize that we're into the 'Classic'/Modern ages of Motorcycles. it's a matter of samantics. Setting a cut-off date would certainly keep us a pure 'Antique' motorcycle Club. But why not have the best of both worlds. Usher in the Classics with the 25 Year Rule. If just the eligibility for Judging Criteria is the issue, then who's to say we couldn't keep that at the 35 year Rule or split the difference and set Judging at the 30 year Mark. As for the Japanese/British Bikes...again we're not the 'American Only' MCA.....Check out my next thread and tell me what you think....Later... ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

I screwed up adding to this topic, so to continue this thread, just go to '25 Year Rule'... ..Hrdly-Dangrs

[LouieMCman]

35 year rule

I wanted to reply and put in our two cents worth on changing the 35 year rule. The Dixie Chapter had a road run last weekend and I put the 35 year rule on the meeting agenda and stated that the National Board wanted our opinion on the matter. We had about 20 members from three different chapters in attendance and the vote was unanimous, all was in favor of NOT changing the rule. There was many comments such as, the club is growing every year so why change? And, the judging is a nightmare now especially with the late model bikes why change now?
To be fair, I must admit that there mostly american bikes on the run. But I wanted to get this message out before the rule was voted on by the Board. I personnally believe we should not change to rule, one of the most rediculous things I know of is the 20 year antique rule that Harley-Davidson uses for their ride-in bike shows in Daytona. Next year Evo's will be antiques!!!
Louie Hale
Dixie Chapter

[AFJ]

25 or 35 year rule

I have no particular difficulty with either the existing 35 or a possible 25 year rule for AMCA eligibility.

One aspect does concern me. That is the fact that on the AMCA Road Runs which I have participated in, there have been quite a number of bikes participating which were less - a lot less - than 35 years of age. The "turning a blind eye" to the use of non-eligible bikes means that our road runs then become just like any other motorcycle club's runs. I think that these runs should be celebrations of our motorcycling heritage and the ability of our members to rebuild and ride the really historic old bikes - not just those 35, 40 or 50 years old for which new parts are available but those from the teens, '20's, 30's and '40's. Those older bikes are much more of a challenge to get into running condition and to ride in an event. The satisfaction of completing a 125 mile day's schedule in a National Road Run on a 1920's motorcycle has to be experienced to be understood.

I would promote the idea of special routes at the National Road Runs more suitable for the earlier bikes in order to encourage AMCA members who own them to participate. It's worth the extra layout effort to see the real Antique bikes out there and being used as they were intended to be.

[mick]

1st post: I think this has been mentioned more than once, but how about a CLASSIC designation for the newer bikes? At events they could be grouped separately. The greater point would be the encouraging of participation and the sharing of interests. I think there is a value to the sharing of interests and experiences between those who have similar, but slightly different interests - in this case equipment. For instance, someone with a 25 yr. old bike may benefit from rubbing elbows with someone owning a true antique bike. Pass the wisdom, interest and experience along the chain, don't cut the chain to keep people out. Those who are older and have experienced these antique bikes when they were in their youth (and the bikes were new) may have great memories to share with the younger crowd who are now only reaching back to the classics. In my view we're all in this because of a love for motorcycling; there's surely a way for everyone to participate, while retaining divisions (antique, classic, etc.) which aknowledge different ages of motorcycling history.

mick

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Ok, let's say you've just picked up a decent mid-Seventies Norton, Sportster, BT Shovelhead, Honda...your choice..(But I like Nortons today.) Got it for a good price and its going to be a good Father/Son project or maybe you've always wanted one for your collection. Overall its in good restoreable condition. Just needs some parts and sheetmetal and good ole' elbow grease to make it like new or a good 'original' condition bike. Now here you are, a Member of a motorcycle club who's goal it is to seek out and restore or bring back to original condition these very motorcycles, but your not going to be able to find parts for this bike at this years AMCA shows, nor next year, nor the year after that, nor the year after that, .....nor... need I go on?? The 35 Year Rule as it stands does nothing to promote the trading/selling/finding of the parts that will put this soon to be 'Antique' (ACCORDING TO OUR OWN 35 YEAR RULE ANYWAY), bike back in shape for the year it is going to be eligible to Judge....UNTIL THE VERY YEAR IT IS ELIGIBLE TO BE JUDGED!! Just does not make sense to me! Why are we denying our Vendors (OURSELVES), the opportunity to supply these much needed parts for fellow Members who's motorcycle is a mere 3-5 years from the 35 Year Rule!! Certainly, here to me at least is an area that should be addressed in regards to the 'ACROSS THE BOARD' 35 Year Rule as it now stands! Maybe your not in favor of the 25 Year Rule itself, but when it comes to the all encompassing 35 Year Rule I think there are many areas that could get a 'tweek' of the wrench.... '''Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

So, H.D., your logic is that if a bike is close to becoming an antique than we should go ahead and allow them and their parts into the AMCA. I find that thinking flawed. Why bother with even a 25 year rule? Just let any motorcycle in, if it doesn't qualify as an antique now than it will a few years down the road. You seem to think that if the AMCA doesn't embrace a certain motorcycle than there is no way that parts can be found or it can be restored. Have you ever heard of the Norton Owners Club, Triumph Owners Club, BSA Owners Club or the Vintage Japanese Owners Club? They're all great organizations and more than able to provide parts sources and assistance to their respective members, probably far more effectively than the AMCA ever could. They all sponsor meets and get togethers where you can find Norton, BSA, etc. parts without having to sort through piles of old Harley, Japanese, etc. parts. If it's a father and son project than I'd bet that son is computer savvy enough to find these sources on the 'net, or for that matter in Cycle World Magazine. (More on that later.) I think the only thing we agree on is the fact that just because a bike is 35 years old, that doesn't make it an antique. I propose that instead of having a 35 or 25 year rule, we just make a permanent cutoff year of 1953. Harley had just introduced foot shifting and Indian was about to become history. The British bikes were losing a lot of their old time charm also. It was the start of the "modern" era for motorcycles. Maybe we could even extend it to the late '50s to include the last rigid frames.
Now, on another note, the last couple of issues of "The Antique Motorcycle" have been a big disappointment to me. We haven't even killed the 35 year rule yet and already there is coverage on newer cycles. If I want that kind of stuff I'll read "Cycle World" magazine. Our club magazine is the only one out there that doesn't have articles on "modern" era bikes (other than the new and excellent "Motorcycles in Retrospect") and I think it should stay that way. Sorry, but I'm not interested in supporting an organization or attending meets that cater to modern cycles. I know a few others that feel the same way.