On Line Library

[Paps]

Well I got permissions to add a library. The webmaster is going to work on it soon. Paps

[George Greer]

Pa..

When you tell me its ready, I will try and upload what I have...

IF the files are too large..

I will burn them to a CD and mail it to ya.

For FREE!!

George

[Paps]

I got quite a bit of lit to upload to George. Thanks ! Paps

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, many thanks for your passionate views. I'll limit myself to comments about the On-Line library.

The Club has paid nothing for documents so far, as these have all been loaned for digitising by kindly Club members, with much from George Yarocki. So our costs have been purchase of good quality scanners and software, and someone to spend many many days scanning, organising and naming the files; developing the Website and links, and organising the shopping basket etc for downloading the files. We now have over 500 documents digitised, not all of which are yet uploaded to the Library.

This has cost the best part of $50k, and I think it's right to make a charge for the information in order to test if we are doing the right thing. Not only that, there are vendors trying to make a living out of photocopying these documents, and to have a not-for-profit Club turn round and put them out of business with free downloads would not be a great idea. So far we have recovered only a small proportion of our outlay, so perhaps the Library is only for a small but vocal minority of our members, and we should sit tight where we are and do no more work. For myself, I think the provision of technical information is one of the main things our Club is about, and I would like us to continue. If members wish to donate documents, particularly ready-scanned, we would be grateful to receive them. We are aiming to 'digitally watermark' the scans with the AMCA logo and the donors name. As a responsible Club, we are also being careful about copyright issues, and you will note the info so far is mostly over 50 years old and/or from manufacturers no longer in business.

We were shooting in the dark when we set the member and non-member prices, and there are clearly some mistakes. Of course we don't get to hear people say that some of our information is a bargain and we should be asking more. But if you think some items are way out of line, please let Larry Barnes or myself know.

I'd like to see us upload all the documents we have digitised, correct any obvious mistakes in pricing, accept scans from other donors, and move slowly ahead with younger bikes and other manufacturers. But the Library cannot become a money pit, and even though we are a non-profit Club we should operate in a businesslike way as there are many other demands on Club funds. Having said all that, I think our On-line Library has got off to a promising start.

[Sargehere]

Dear All, ...Not only that, there are vendors trying to make a living out of photocopying these documents, and to have a not-for-profit Club turn round and put them out of business with free downloads would not be a great idea.

As a matter of fact, Steve, it wouldn't bother me in the least! You don't have to gouge the members to artificially prop-up the very greed-attitude that we complain of daily here, that puts money in the pockets of people who've chosen to pursue what they imagined to be a relatively easy livelihood, selling copies of the early-20th Century printed information that should be free. For the club to be supporting and institutionalizing (subsidizing) their obsolete method of commerce by refusing to put what would be willingly donated, into the public domain in the present-day is insufferable!
We're living in a changing society, changing every day. People no longer make a profit making buggy whips, or 8-track tape players, or, notably, even printed encyclopedias. Why?
Because all the information in an encyclopedia can be contained on a CD ROM!
There is a difference between the emotional desire to possess the musty, original documents, and just pursuing the information they contain to complete your '23 Indian correctly. If your acquisitive yearning leans towards having to own the original literature, it should be available at whatever the market will bear, and the owner has his God-given right to charge a fair price for it. But to look at a scan to know whether the kickstarter arm on the bike you are restoring was cadmium, chrome or parkerized shouldn't cost money!
Many of the reprinted things I've seen offered for sale by our profiteers of are low quality, and smack of copyright infringement to start with.
I just rejoined after having my differences with the club in the past. Having been around since before the Steve McQueen auction blew the doors off of antique motorcycling, I remember our founders, and men opening their car trunks at Ft. Mott to pass their spares on to people who needed them for next-to-nothing.
I see the profit-motive in everything taking our hobby right out of the reach of the everyday mechanically-minded enthusiast and delivering it over to wealth-seeking profiteers. It stinks.
--Gerry Lyons, AMCA 607 (once "43")

[davidsonp9]

I feel as most do from the responses that charging for scanned copies of documents provided free of charge by members is a bad idea. The library should be a source of technical documents and information donated by members for use by all other members free of charge. That is in line with the original purpose of the club; motorcycle enthusiasts sharing their love and passion of the sport and hobby. I see no problem with charging non-members which should be a no-brainer.

The idea of not wanting to infringe on vendors ability to make a living by selling copied documents is not a valid argument because what they are doing in most cases is breaking the law by selling copies of copyright information. I understand that there is a expnse for developing a system such as this however, I still find it hard to believe that $50,000 was spent to get what we have today. Loads of original documents could have been purchased for that amount.

I strongly believe that the library will get a great deal of use if it is setup correctly, meaning easy to use and no cost to members. Being a chapter President I have had the request made to me several times of having a national database of this type to make it convinient for members to access technical information to help them with their restoration projects. I hope that we can achieve something that is useful and desireable by all.

[jww]

Gentleman,
In the past, as a Chapter President and a dues paying member, I too have voiced my opinion regarding various issues. Sometimes my passion for the hobby and the AMCA pushed me to the point of wanting to cease being involved. All of these repetitious differences of opinions with the direction of the club mean very little.

"ARTICLE III. Section 1. The conduct of affairs of the corporation and the attainment of its purposes shall be managed and guided by the board of directors of the corporation."

Be involved when its your desire, spend your money when you desire, laugh and look the other way when you differ........cause if your not on the Board of Directors it really doesn't matter as long as the ByLaws remain as they are today.

I'm just glad most of the members I know do not operate in the same manner as the Club. I have been blessed with much knowledge and assistance free of charge. Thanks to you all and given the opportunity I will return the favors.

[Snakeoil]

If anyone would like to see that I believe to be one of the finest enthusiast website on the internet, check out http://www.miata.net/

They have more information about Miatas than you could ever want. Section called the Garage with how-to articles. Stats on how many were built of what color and so forth. There is a free classified section. The forum is superb. Everybody shares everything.

The site appears to be supported by sponsors that advertise. Members get discounts with some vendors if they mention the site. And when I say members, I mean you register for free and you are now a member. It is not a club, just a website.

I would think that such as site would be possible for antique bikes. Just the stuff that could be contributed to a Garage section would be priceless to the enthusiasts. Think how many times the same question is asked and answered now.

Just a thought.

[Baytown]

Good outcome.

G'day fellas.
Just to finalise my experience with the library download service, Larry sent me rescans of 2 of the documents in question, and then refunded the $100 US that I paid.
Larry put quite a bit of effort and more than a few e-mails into sorting this problem for me.
Very satisfactory support from the Library team, and no matter what the issues re prices being asked of members, the support offered by Larry and his team (if he has a team) brings credit to the club.
Thanks Larry.

Ken.

[Mark Woodstock]

Steve,

I couldn't help but notice the comment that so far, the Club has spent no funds on the purchase of literature. Why then did we purchase the literature at the Milby Jones auction at the Jefferson meet several years ago if not for the on line library? I also remember reading in the Meeting Minutes in one of our Club magazines a year to two ago, of the purchase of thousands of dollars worth of literature from the VMCC. If the purchase of these collections was not for the on-line library, then what was it for and where are they now?

I can't help but notice that no one feels that they as a Club member should pay to download this literature. It appears that everyone feels it is a great idea to have an accessible database, and could prove invaluable to Club members. At this point in time, I don't think we can call this a library, as it is more of a "on-line store". As far as this project continuing, I too would love to see it grow and not turn into a money pit.

I think we should learn from this, and instead of throwing 50K at something and then finding out it's not what the members want, perhaps in the future when the Board comes up with an idea as grand and as costly as this one, they should obtain a consensus of its members. For example, a survey of Club members could be conducted through the magazine and/or the website. In no way do I mean to suggest that every time the Board needs to make a decision it should go through the members, but in circumstances such as the library, it would have been a prudent idea.

I know some people think that if you have an opinion and choose to voice it that you are a troublemaker, but I believe that many members who voice their opinion do so due to their genuine care and concern for the future of the Club.

[45OZ]

Steve,

I couldn't help but notice the comment that so far, the Club has spent no funds on the purchase of literature. Why then did we purchase the literature at the Milby Jones auction at the Jefferson meet several years ago if not for the on line library? I also remember reading in the Meeting Minutes in one of our Club magazines a year to two ago, of the purchase of thousands of dollars worth of literature from the VMCC. If the purchase of these collections was not for the on-line library, then what was it for and where are they now?

I can't help but notice that no one feels that they as a Club member should pay to download this literature. It appears that everyone feels it is a great idea to have an accessible database, and could prove invaluable to Club members. At this point in time, I don't think we can call this a library, as it is more of a "on-line store". As far as this project continuing, I too would love to see it grow and not turn into a money pit.

I think we should learn from this, and instead of throwing 50K at something and then finding out it's not what the members want, perhaps in the future when the Board comes up with an idea as grand and as costly as this one, they should obtain a consensus of its members. For example, a survey of Club members could be conducted through the magazine and/or the website. In no way do I mean to suggest that every time the Board needs to make a decision it should go through the members, but in circumstances such as the library, it would have been a prudent idea.

I know some people think that if you have an opinion and choose to voice it that you are a troublemaker, but I believe that many members who voice their opinion do so due to their genuine care and concern for the future of the Club.

I agree with you on this Mark, In fact I asked the same thing about the Milby Jones auction in Jefferson about 2 months ago (Sept. 14th) & there has never been a response about the Lit Overpaid by the club with Club money I was told it was for a refference libary for the club thus justifing Members money paying for it. I see here that you read that No Club money was spent on litterature? Who now owns the lit. Purchased at the Milby Jones Auction? What is it being used for? & Why do members not hava access to the info?
Am I the only one who feels these are valid questions? Does anyone read this bord from the club who knows the True answers/ Who would we ask?
ANYBODY KNOW???

[davidsonp9]

The National President and Treasurer should certainly have the answers. However, I question whether the answers we are looking for will be provided. As most have suspected, the club is becoming more of a business than a club controlled by a board who is elected internally and controls the funds for their self serving needs. Take note that there are a number of attorneys involved so you can make your own assumtion from that.

Bottom line as far as the library goes, never were any of the members nor chapter officers asked to provide input as to what type of system would be most beneficial to the members. This also should indicate what direction the Board is going with our club and funds.

Like most, I just want to share my love and passion for antique motorcycles with fellow club members but the business part seems to be taking all the fun away.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Nothing stopping anyone from starting up a new Antique/Vintage motorcycle club. Its not like the AMCA has a lock on the vintage bike scene. Lots of other well organized clubs out there doing their thing. Granted, not many the size of the AMCA, but so what.

I don't owe the AMCA anything. So if anybody seriously wants to consider starting a new vintage motorcycle club, I'd be game. Hrdly

[exeric]

I think it's now obvious that Rocky inherited a company and not a club. A mess of the previous president's making. I believe Rocky is an honorable man and a genuine motorcycle enthusiast who joined this club for the same reason all of us did. To me it looks like the AMCA (on the political side) is turning into a 600 pound gorilla that nobody can put back in it's cage and will from here on out, be a different organization than we originally joined. If Rocky remains our president, his challenge will be to bring the AMCA back to an organization that we all can get behind and support. I have loved being a member of this great club but this past year has been disillusioning. I am feeling more like a customer and less like a club member. If this "everything has a price" attitude continues to become the mantra for the AMCA board, our club will shrink. History has proven that no company or politician can survive without the support of the people.

Oh yeah. I spent the day getting the front fender ready for paint on my '48FL. So I do work on bikes in addition to being a trouble-maker.

[Ohio-Rider]

Almost 10 pages here now. This is my first posting about the topic of the library, and then I’ll rest my peace.

To my way of thinking, who cares what our organization charges non-members to download the same information which any AMCA member can do from here for free.

Honestly! How many times has anyone needed “correct” advise about rebuilding an old machine, and not received a good, thoroughly discussed, answer to their specific questions with photo’s right here thru this forum. Whether the question is about how to get it running to how to build a 99 point machine it can all be done from right here, on this forum. Not bad for $30. a year.

Some of the most respected authorities in the antique motorcycling world, willingly share their many years of knowledge here daily. Not bad for $30. a year.

I won’t even try to put a price on how much I enjoy seeing each new AMCA magazine arrive. Knowing it will be full of entertaining stories and coming events. Again, Not bad for $30. a year.

If selling things from the library to folks who could get it free here keeps my membership at $30. a year, then so be it.

P.S… Eric, I LOVE 48’s. Lets see some pictures soon.