New Motorcycles Outsmart Riders

[Jerry Hatfield]

This is partly why I have no desire to own a new motorcycle, especially a new BMW.

A rider of a new BMW was cruising along when the electronic tire pressure sensor indicated the front tire was rapidly losing air. The rider stopped at a service station to check this out, and of course turned off the ignition. Examination revealed the front tire wasn't losing air. Great! But...when the rider tried to start the engine, the electronic security system failed, meaning that the motorcycle didn't recognize the rider's ignition key.

So we have two false indications of problems, the first bringing minor inconvenience but the second requiring a tow truck.

My 35 year old BMW will never have either of these problems. My motorcycle was built back when BMW advertisements proclaimed "K.I.S.S.," explaining that this meant "Keep it simple, Stupid!" Plus, my bike has the added advantage of sounding like a motorcycle instead of sounding like a blender. Other "quaint" features of a 35 year old BMW compared to a new BMW: 100 pounds lighter; center of gravity several inches lower; simple and very effective air cooling system with no moving parts compared to oil-cooled cylinder heads with radiator and hoses; battery assessible by flipping up the seat compared to significant motorcycle disassembly to even see the battery in a new BMW; big fat torque curve works with a 4-speed transmission versus rev-happy narrow power band with a 6-speed transmission; saddle 2 or 3 inches lower; and, aesthetically, doesn't compete with some new BMWs for the title "Ugliest motorcycle of all time."

Over the past 35 years, many improvements have come along -- 1/4 inch and 5 pounds at a time. But in the aggregate, the rider isn't better off by the sum of it all. Today's riders have been outsmarted by the psychology that more is better. In architecture, there's long been the slogan, "More is less." I agree with that.

[AFJ]

The advent of the computer controlled, electronic ignitioned, fuel-injected, and gizmoed modern motorcycles - which cannot be maintained, adjusted or serviced by the owner (even if he or she has some mechanical know-how and a good shop handy, has been a boon to the motorcycle factory dealerships in service revenue. The tow, in the case of the modern BMW motorcycle would be to an authorized BMW dealer to replace part or all of the central computer which controls both ignition key recognition and tire pressure monitoring or, if lucky, simply charge the battery. Most likely the real problem was low battery voltage as this results in the centralized BMW computer system going "haywire" and doing many odd things. The cost would have been ridiculously high unless the bike was under warranty.

Mind you, the old BMW airheads like Jerry's have their flaws. It requires moving 14 different parts and use of 4 different tools to service/change the air filter element. On the /6 and later versions of Jerry's BMW, removal/replacement of the battery requires either extensive dismantling of the induction/air cleaner system or the actual unbolting of the rear subframe of the bike. And the several hours needed to grease the clutch shaft, centralize the swingarm, etc., etc.,

But the old ones are, in many respects, more user-friendly, serviceable, and better motorcycles than the modern BMWs.

And I think this is much more than nostalgia for a vanished simplicity.

AFJ
('78 BMW R100/7, some older British bikes, too)

[sveger]

Modern versus old BMW technology

Interesting thread, I have a BMW R100/7 as my daily ride and several vintage motorbikes that I can use, US and british. I have used airhead BMW as my daily drive for 25 years, OK some problems but nothing I couldnt solve roadside to bring me home.

I have a friend working wth the modern BMW`s and I have been told you can`t even change the brake pads yourself as the computer system have to be hooked up to reset some parameter.

Another friend of mine having been a lucky Velocette owner for 35 years bought after years of considerations a new BMW F 650. He soon did with this as he had done with his Velocette for years and years, left it outside when not driving it.
After half a year or so the bike started acting funny, showing ABS faults, lowering the ignition curve and god knows what.
Long story short, the bike couldnt cope with the rain and snow as moist had entered the electronics and caused it to freak out. Luckily his bike was still under full warranty when they had to change its "brain" and stuff. Imagine this bike after some 30 years! I sure didnt want that and the expences it would give me.

One should admit tough that modern bikes have better braking performance and handling.
To overcome this I have rebuilt my BMW with the modern BMW brakes, suspension, forks and rear swing arm.
This gives me the best from two worlds, a drivetrain that is easily maintained and understod and the advantages of modern braking and chassis/suspension.



Kind regards
Sverre K. Gerber
Norway AMCA member

[vintagecycle2000]

I have to chime in here, and say that my most dependable bike has been my 1961 BMW R60/2. I've been riding this bike since 1995, after pulling it out of a garage, which it sat in since 1972, and it still has the original points! I've had to replace the brake shoes once, replaced the rear final drive seal, installed new tires and a new battery, but that's it. I've put over 10,000 trouble free miles on it, I think I've had to do more work on my 2000 Buell, which only has 12,000 miles on it!


Cheers,

Erik

[Paps]

Computer controled vehicles mean one thing only. Outside control......beyond yours ! Paps

[Ohio-Rider]

My worst bike ever is setting safely away from me, behind all of Brenda’s crap which she keeps in the back shed. It doesn’t get to be with the others because it doesn’t know how to be nice.

It is the only H/D I have ever ordered and bought, brand new. I’m talking about my 72XLH. I got it brand new, the year I got out of high school. I ordered it with every factory option available that year, with speed in mind. Then when I got it home I put a put a set of 4” over tubes and a Mikuni carb on it. I could beat most 750 Kaw’s back then but when the new 900 Kaw’s came out they gave to trouble. I don’t think Harley ever produce a machine that could beat the 900Kaw’s. But that’s another topic.

So why is it still my worst bike ever? That first year of ownership, the bike ate 2 transmissions. (Third gear’s to be specific.) In 36 yrs it has eaten more trannys than I can count. Granted, Each and everyone one has been of my own doing. Its simple math, that if you have more power than the tranny can handle. Ka…Boom

Anyway, I got tired of working on it, but just can’t get rid of it. So it sits out there this very minute needing a new third gear which let go over 15yrs. ago and I ain’t doing it again. -Steve

[petri]

Interesting thread. I also have a BMW, a 1978 R100/7. Reliable is the keyword and no computer doing my thinking for me. With only 30K miles on it I expect to ride it for a very long time and best of all, I can do my own work on this bike. In five years it will be AMCA legal for road runs. I'd love to have something from the 30's but at least I have something from before the computer age for now while I wait.

Howard

[darrylri]

Well, I was trying to stay out of this thread, but...

I've got BMWs from 7 of the 9 decades they've been making them. Each generation has its own set of quirks and problems, but because BMWs tend to have long production runs, the faults get to be well known, as do the solutions.

My most reliable and least service intensive BMW has been my 1994 R1100RS, with Motronic fuel injection and ABS brakes. It has been sitting in a friend's garage in Germany for the last 6 years, after I put over 160,000 miles on it where it stranded me exactly once with a broken driveshaft u-joint. I finally blew up the original motor while doing about 110mph on the autobahn, at 180,000 miles. When I get over there next month, I will break 200,000 miles on that bike.

Meanwhile, a friend from the Netherlands is here visiting, and I've loaned him my '07 BMW boxer. So, I'm riding around on my '75 R90S. (I bought this 11 years ago when someone traded it in on a new K bike, and I've put almost 35,000 miles on it since.) We were at the NorCal '49er rally last weekend, and on Monday, with it all packed to return home, it wouldn't start. Eventually it had to go home in a truck. Turned out that the points had gone bad (though I still don't understand how points can, overnight, have high resistance, which prevents the plugs from firing under compression). In an hour I'll be out riding this bike again and will put 300 miles on it today.

The airheads have several weaknesses -- the diode board, the rotor, and the u-joints in the paralever if you have an R100GS all come to mind right away. The newer bikes have some weaknesses, too -- there was a bad batch of bearings in the final drives of some bikes a few years ago and the latest "hexhead" bikes had some bad seals on the final drives.

But even the 1920s BMWs had issues with final drive castings cracking.

On the newest bikes, the EWS (anti-theft) system is getting a bad rap right now because there have been a few antenna ring failures (this is mounted around the ignition lock and talks to the chip in the key), which leaves you entirely stranded if you have the problem. There is no other solution than replacing the bad antenna, which is generally difficult to get at because it's under the top triple clamp and mounted with security screws.

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

..better at anchoring my responses to technical issues so usually refrain from opinion oriented posts at forums at risk of wandering a bit but this one's intriguing as it's drifted over to a marque rarely discussed on this forum - BMW's - specifically their position as the bellweather of technology against a history that touted simplicity.

EFI in of itself is an absolutely wonderful thing having reached its zenith with refinement of ultra reliable electronic componentry about 2000 or so, the most bullet proof being completely stand alone closed loop systems reading entirely from a static database table such as the Italian EFI system I was fortunate enough to help refine here. These systems were oriented more towards off road use as OBDII had already begun to saddle (corrupt) their street use counterparts with every imagineable function down to sound systems, side window glass function, keyless entry/starts, chimes, etc.. starting about 96.

These were simple bullet proof systems just like Indian electronic ignition conversions famous for their tolerance of water and heat ...as long as you have a milspec harness, and having been built to the EPA 100k mile performance standard as an unwritten benchmark, make any carburetor seem like a finicky maintenance intensive annoyance.

Where BMW and other high end m/c manufacturers have strayed is embracing/incorporating every imagineable electronic function into a two wheeler further complicated by dense component packaging requiring rubick's cube maniputlation when any maintenance is required. Though my posts at VirtualIndian.org are staunchly supportive of vintage Indians for most any occassion, I too have been through a number of /2's over the years and a painless relationship it has been. But, as mentioned at my website, 1941 Indian Four - Unfinished Business - under the ..mechanical journey tab, my 1968 R69s is the go too machine when the chips are really down for a vintage ride in less than ideal conditions. It has been a totally reliable piece and with carefull maintenance along the way, when I pulled my motor down at 63k for a freshening, the slingers were not even full and all bearings still perfect, with rings and a head rebuild it's ready for the next xx number of miles/years and with our riding habits, see no need to acquire anything remotely like the latest complex offerings.

As is often observed in the car world and now seeping into the m/c side as well where m/c's like BMW's are concerned, with the advent of electronic domination of machine function, we're basically seeing the end of an era. These machine's lifes have now been defined as having one phase by their useable years/miles in the present as few/none will want to bother restoring them 20-30 years from now.

[AFJ]

Interesting thread. I also have a BMW, a 1978 R100/7. Reliable is the keyword and no computer doing my thinking for me. With only 30K miles on it I expect to ride it for a very long time and best of all, I can do my own work on this bike. In five years it will be AMCA legal for road runs. I'd love to have something from the 30's but at least I have something from before the computer age for now while I wait.

Howard

Just a note on the 35 year rule for bikes on AMCA Road Runs. I have been on 4 of these National Road Runs in the last decade and in all of these runs there were bikes used that were not even close to being 35 years old. In some cases, they were being ridden by elderly AMCA members who, as I understand it, are permitted to use newer-than-35-year bikes. But quite a number of these newer - and nearly new in a few cases - bikes were being ridden by relatively young AMCA members. I gather from this experience that you can pretty well ride what you turn up with.

Myself, I prefer the older bikes and try to ride the oldest bike of the pair of bikes which I usually bring to these events. And I prefer to talk of combined bike and rider age as follows:
1999 Finger Lakes Run, Rider + 250 Levis = 131 years, Rider + 500 Triumph = 91 years
2002 Finger Lakes Run II, Rider + 500 Triumph = 97 years
2006 Allegheny Run, Rider + 500 Triumph = 105 years, Rider + 250 Levis = 145 years
2007 1000 Islands Run, Rider - 990 Brough = 136 years, Rider + 980 BMW = 96 years

There are some days routes on these Runs where the older, slower and smaller bikes are probably marginal in terms of safety to the rider and I urge organizers of these events to consider all categories of old bike in their route selection, in order to encourage the earlier bikes to participate.

AFJ

[AFJ]

We were at the NorCal '49er rally last weekend, and on Monday, with it all packed to return home, it wouldn't start. Eventually it had to go home in a truck. Turned out that the points had gone bad (though I still don't understand how points can, overnight, have high resistance, which prevents the plugs from firing under compression).

Poor design - the points are in a location where service and gap-setting - without that special little tool - can be difficult and too time-consuming to do at all for the less persistent of us. So we don't notice the wear and pitting and then ----- . My impression of them is that they are basically an automotive design with maintenance scheduling designed into the bike. Some other brands - however worn and neglected will still run - badly - but they will still run while letting you know that you are on borrowed time with them.

AFJ

[Jerry Hatfield]

My entry which started this thread, discussed an electronic security system failure on a new BMW motorcycle. A member of our local BMWDFW (Dallas-Fort Worth) club has noted that the security system protects against a very unlikely thief modus operandi. What is the likelihood that a thief's approach will be to attempt a start with a similar ignition key? On the other hand, what is the likelihood that a thief's approach will be to load the motorcycle in a truck, drive off, and sort out the rest later? In my opinion, the BMW key-recognition feature is a solution looking for a problem.

I had two Yamaha 550 V-twins in the 1980s, logging a combined 80,000 miles on these bikes. They had a side-stand electric switch that prevented putting the motorcycle in gear with the side-stand down and the engine running. I never had a problem with this component. But I used to worry about it and wonder why Yamaha didn't take the Honda approach. Honda mounted a rubber "sub" stand under the side-stand, the sub stand angled so that it would contact the ground long before the side-stand was in the neighborhood, thus knocking the side-stand up and out of harm's way. A wonderful example of K.I.S.S.!

[darrylri]

My entry which started this thread, discussed an electronic security system failure on a new BMW motorcycle. A member of our local BMWDFW (Dallas-Fort Worth) club has noted that the security system protects against a very unlikely thief modus operandi. What is the likelihood that a thief's approach will be to attempt a start with a similar ignition key? On the other hand, what is the likelihood that a thief's approach will be to load the motorcycle in a truck, drive off, and sort out the rest later? In my opinion, the BMW key-recognition feature is a solution looking for a problem.

While your point is well taken in general, I think that's not so true with BMWs.

In the US, I think that most BMWs are not typically stolen by 3 guys in a van. Unlike with some brands, there's just not a large black market for modern BMW parts. Hence, stealing a BMW for the purpose of chopping it and selling the parts is not a normal situation here.

(For anecdotal evidence of this, I point you to the stolen bikes listing on the Internet BMW Riders Marketplace site. While the marketplace itself is quite active, I can only recall a couple listings of bikes here, certainly less than 5.)

If, OTOH, the thief's purpose is to ride the bike (joyride) or to sell it off as a running bike, there is no "sorting it out later", because the motor electronics simply won't let the bike run without the key. A new key with the same coded chip as the original, or a new BMS engine management module with a new matching key would have to be obtained to let the bike run again. There is no way to "hot wire" the bike, whether it's sitting on the street or in the thief's garage.

This is exactly what makes a failed EWS antenna ring so frustrating to an owner -- without a working antenna, nothing will get the bike to start.

I believe that Ducati has also started using a similar system.

[darrylri]

Poor design - the points are in a location where service and gap-setting - without that special little tool - can be difficult and too time-consuming to do at all for the less persistent of us. So we don't notice the wear and pitting and then ----- . My impression of them is that they are basically an automotive design with maintenance scheduling designed into the bike. Some other brands - however worn and neglected will still run - badly - but they will still run while letting you know that you are on borrowed time with them.

AFJ

I don't want to hijack this thread, but with the front cover off, we were able to see the points opening and closing, and, with an ohm meter, we were able to verify the static timing of the points. And the plugs, when out of the heads and sitting on the cylinders (to establish ground) would fire, but the spark looked weak. New plugs did not change this situation. The bike had been out on 100+ mile run the previous day with no obvious symptoms, and it started and ran easily.