harley's first O.H.V.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 8 valve

Originally posted by jurassic
(snip)
the 1915 harley 8 valve is in the process of being replicated,hopefully by davenport.thats why any other info on the bike would be a great help.the lines of the bike kinda fall apart near the back of the gas tank and the seat post casting.to me it almost looks like the chassis was just one of their regular wrecking crew bikes that they somehow crammed this huge engine into.but then again the tanks dont have pockets ,so the tanks looks like they were made to the frame after the engine was in it.the bike ,in my opinion, does not have a clean factory look.unlike this later 8 valve.

Wow!

The 1915 8-valve is being replicated as we speak, er, type?

My dream has come true! (To borrow a phrase from Mr. Honda).

Yes, it does look more primitive and clunky than the 1916 version, but it was a good start.

The Clymer photo you found is the only one that I've seen. Unless there is a glass plate negative of it in the H-D Archives BIG collection of Rosenkranz images that was previously owned by the Milwaukee County Historical Society and where I examined them.

Lots of racing pix in that VAST collection and 1915 was well-covered. I know that I saw a racing Pope and a Cyclone in them, but didn't know to look for a 1915 8-valve when I perused THOUSANDS of glass plate negatives over two years time wearing white gloves with a curator watching me like a hawk. That's when and how Negative 599 was discovered. There was no time to examine them closely, but I did take notes.

I'd say there is a good chance of a 1915 8-valve photo being in that collection. Their very first OHV 8-valve racer? Chances are Rosenkranz photographed it. And if there's one image there may be several different shots.

This is a very historic motorcycle and no mistake!

[exeric]

It seems like Harley Davidson can be our best friend, and our worst enemy. Don't get me wrong, I love the motor company like it's almost family but sometimes it seems like they do things just to be mean. On one hand, they give us these beautiful sacred objects and a cult to go with the objects, then they deny us access to more fully experience the the cult. Maybe they do it to keep us comming back. Well Herb, it seems you're the only person with access to the demigods at H-D that comes back with solid good stuff.

[exeric]

After reading my own post, I realize that it's cynical and critical of H-D. As most of us, I love H-D products from the past and want to know more about them. Herb and other authors have sacrificed their time and energy to bring this knowledge to us but I have never seen anything of much value come from the Company itself. I understand they have a vast archive that preserves old things and is always on the look-out for more. My questiion is: What good is it if you don't share it. It just seems mean spirited to hoard photos and literature that would be of tremendous use and intrest to enthusiasts. What I really wish, is that Harley Davidson had someone that would jump into this forum when we could use their resources. Not for nit-picking mechanical B.S. but for historical data that they might possess. I know a little bit of mystery makes things more interesting but H-D really needs to open the door of it's archive.

[LouieMCman]

I have six Harley's that span 83 years and although I have have other brands, I always say I'm a Harley Guy. I even tried to get in the archives once but was denied. Who wouldn't want to spend a few hours (days?) in the archives? Harley is working on the new museum that will hopefully have a lot of the archives in it, but open up it's doors? Maybe for a small price of admission! We will see...

[HarleyCreation]

Considering what you guys have said and also the historical importance of this bike this seems to be occasion to fire up the Time Machine again! To that end I have officially notified a higher power and made an inquiry about the Rosenkranz collection.

[jurassic]

1915

this is what the basic ,wrecking crew bike looked like.it has drum brakes as did the whole 1914 and 1915 line.i cant understand why the 1915 8 valve has a 1913 coaster brake rear hub,the one actuated by the bicycle chain and the pedal crank sprocket..it doesn't appear to have a rear wheel clutch,which all 1913 rear hubs had.so what rear hub do i need to get.

[jurassic]

8 valve

8 valve

[jurassic]

frame

to me it looks like they did drop the loop a little,and raised the top bars,as well as bending the bar in front of the engine.but they did not change the angle of the legs on the rear section to meet the taller loop.they would have had to make new axle plate castings ,this would have meant many casting changes in the whole rear section. so instead they just bend the two top bars down to meet the seat post casting and leave the rear section alone.they dont even lenghten the gas tank to cover this funky setup up.i believe the tank is the same as a standard wrecking crew fat rivit tank ,but without pockets.the whole bike appears to just be an afterthought.like wow ,we just got this monster motor running ,now you 2 guys have 3 days to put it into a chassis so we can test it.

[jurassic]

dales rivit tank

up close these wide rivited tanks really look strange and out of place on a skinny little racer.

[AdminGuy]

I'd personally give history a little helping hand and correct a few obvious flaws that the factory boys didn't have time to. Like the top tube to seat post casting. I'd make it enter on a better angle. No one is going to notice and it will be structurally sound.

I'd like to see HD digitise the negs and plates to preserve them. As they will rot/fade over time. Then you could go in, sit down and look a the collection with out touching anything.

[jurassic]

frame

correcting these flaws is not as easy as you might think.by spreading the legs on the rear section you will move the rider up, where now he is sitting down into the frame.this will also mess with the rear wheel and fender positions,and change much of the geometry of the whole machine.i think harley knew that they were developing a completely new chassis and didn't really care what this test bike ,"prototype" looked like,because it was probably never seen by the public.i have no idea if this bike really is the prototype,but thats the first impression i got from the pic.i do believe it would be wrong to help history out and change anything on this bike .i want it to look exactly like the bike in the picture,cobbed together ,as raced,original paint ,and running.

[HarleyCreation]

Questions...

It does seem odd that this early 8-valve (1915?) would not have the latest up-to-date parts on it. However, if it were a test-bed bike that could explain the earlier parts and clunky look. At this point we don't know when Harley started this project or how long they had been working on it, but only that Harley fielded an 8-valve during the second half of 1915. Does the Clymer pix bike represent that actual machine or maybe something else?

Another thing we should keep in mind. The photo dates from 1944. We don't know when, where, or under what circumstances it was taken. This photo just drops out of nowhere in Clymer's book with a seemingly incorrect caption and I've never seen it appear anywhere else. We have to ask: Where did Clymer get this photograph and when and where was it taken?

These questions make finding period photos of the 1915 8-valve racer even more critical.

[Pete Gagan]

Gentlemen:
I love this sort of detective work.
Although most of you have more early Harley knowledge than I do, I'd like to offer a couple of possible scenarios regarding Clymer's "15" 8 valve before you rush off to rewrite Harley history.
Obviously Clymer, as a dealer, managed to get his hands on one of the 1916 limited production 8 valves, as we have the pictures and documentation to show that.
One scenario is that during the season he may have slid off, and damaged the chassis, (consider the speed potential and the flimsy frames of those days). It would be a natural for him to fit the engine in his previous year's racer if it was still laying around. Somewhere in my archives I think I've seen a picture of him on a 1915 stripped stock racer.
Another possibility is that he preferred, for whatever reason, the handling of the earlier chassis, and simply retrofitted the engine. The chassis is somewhat modified in the top tubes, so perhaps the steering head angle was different or something.
Frames and engines of race bikes often don't match, due to blowups, rebuilds, and crashes.
If there was a 15, it would have been in the experimental stage, and no doubt ridden by factory riders. Clymer wasn't a factory rider. He was too busy selling motorcycles and cars.
Who knows?
Keep up the good work!
Pete Gagan

[Eric @ B.O.S]

I agree with Pete, although this is exciting the evidence of the bike being built for the 1915 season is slim. Also, let's not forget that the picture is from 1944, of a bike dated 1915. That's 30 years! When was the picture taken? Maybe Clymer raced the 1916 bike in the teens, later kept only the engine and a few years later "restored" it with a 1915 chassis.
Eric

[Earl]

Originally posted by Eric @ B.O.S
I agree with Pete, although this is exciting the evidence of the bike being built for the 1915 season is slim. Also, let's not forget that the picture is from 1944, of a bike dated 1915. That's 30 years! When was the picture taken? Maybe Clymer raced the 1916 bike in the teens, later kept only the engine and a few years later "restored" it with a 1915 chassis.
Eric

Good thoughts Eric.

Everyone who looks at this picture may have their own opinion.

Just like we analyzed the Chandler machine, we need to look at any historical vehicle...........

And ask ourselves the question......

What do we know for sure????.......................

The HarleyCreation comments from just a few postings ago gives a good summary as a starting point.