>>JUDGING @ WAUSEON<<

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Cotten, I agree with you if you're saying that owners should not 'improve' unrestored bikes to chase trophies. The Corvette Club allows unrestored machines to be judged only once, and this is something we should consider. If you want to put your suggestions for improving our judging system into a few sentences I'm sure the Judging Board would listen.

[T. Cotten]

Dear Cotten, I agree with you if you're saying that owners should not 'improve' unrestored bikes to chase trophies. The Corvette Club allows unrestored machines to be judged only once, and this is something we should consider. If you want to put your suggestions for improving our judging system into a few sentences I'm sure the Judging Board would listen.

Good grief, Steve.

The system is pointless if you have no "experts" available, and the information is not preserved for the good of posterity anyway.

Everybody's got a smartphone (except me,,,), yet 'the Board' refuses to digitize judging for the benefit of all. Decades of data were dismissed.

Duh.

...Cotten
PS: My algorithm prohibits more than a 'few sentences', unless over-ridden. Thanks for your attention to this matter... .. ..

[Steve Slocombe]

Thanks Cotten and I'll try to respond constructively to what I think are three points.

1. The system is pointless if you have no experts available. True. Back in the days of Sunday judging Kevin Valentine would ask me to 'sweep up the oddballs' entered that day and I'd find myself trying to evaluate a Cushman and a Sears that I knew nothing about. Those days are long gone. I've spoken before about my nightmare 1964 Marusho going through on the nod to Winners Circle when somebody who actually knows about them says it has the wrong engine/frame combination and should never have been judged. Today we have a three week pre-registration deadline so that the judging team can check for little known marques, check engine/frame numbers, ask for digital photos of details if necessary, and generally do their best to ensure each bike gets fairly judged on the day. This builds on the Virtual Judging pioneered by our California Chapters during Covid. The Event Chief Judge still has the authority to decline to judge a bike for lack of qualified judges, and this has happened.

2. The information is not preserved for the good of posterity. I believe we still retain hard copy judging sheets going back many years, and a digital summary of about five years. The Marque Excellence section on our Website shows multiple photos of awesome 98 point plus bikes, with details of how they failed to make 100. Don't forget the AMCA authors - has Bruce Palmer been labouring away for nothing on 1936-65 Harleys and military bikes? What about Johnny Sells' 600 pages on the 1929-36 Harley 45s? I've written 17 books on 1915-65 Harleys not as commercial projects but as a way of recording these technical minutiae for future generations. I've also written judgiung 'cheat sheets' for the 1915-29 Harley JDs, 1929-36 45s and 1930-36 VLs so that first time judges can get down to about the one point level of deductions without having had the parts through their hands.

3. The Board refuses to digitize judging for the benefit of all. You'll need to ask the Board. Judging is a minority interest in the Club so we need to control expenditure, and our earlier inflexible software is slowly being brought up to date. Our Australian Chapter have been trialling a tablet-based system that prompts for the points deductions listed in our judging handbook, and we may see this spread to other Chapters if successful. Does 'for the benefit of all' mean our hard won knowledge should be made freely available to everybody and his brother? I'm reluctant to see detailed judging information go outside the judging community, so would suggest you join the judging teams if you wish to recommend changes from a position of greater knowledge.

[T. Cotten]

Uh, Steve,..

Did you not request that I post " suggestions into a few sentences.. I'm sure the Judging Board would listen."?

Let's go with #1 for now: Wouldn't it solve the available judges problem it judging went virtual?

Peer review not only in real time, but well into the future, for posterity, and accessible?

,,,,Cotten

[Steve Slocombe]

Well, we did a lot of Virtual Judging during Covid and I was involved in some of it. I found that for paintwork and finishes it was hard to tell original from repainting or replating from the video, and that is a big hit in our judging system. With the narrow field of view from a phone camera I also missed that first broad overall look where you can see that something doesn't look right, such as an incorrect mudguard. The virtual sessions also averaged about 90 minutes, several times more than we normally take, so were a big commitment of judges' time. We also tried to ensure that bikes didn't progress to Winners Circle without a boots-on-the ground examination of the machine. And of course Virtual Judging depends on good broadband, a willing owner, and possibly coordination across multiple time zones. Having said all that, we judged a couple of hundred bikes during lockdown and I hope kept our customers happy with awards and trophies. We learnt lessons that are incorporated in our current judging system. At the beginning of this season owners were asked to include digital photos at the time of pre-registration, later rowed back to being provided on request of the Event Chief Judge. For the 98 point Marque Excellence award, owners still have to follow the 21 day pre-registration deadline, plus supply seven digital photos in a specified format. These are then circulated for comment to marque specialists, as we are surely in the quarter point deduction underbrush by then. I'm not complacent but I think full Virtual Judging will be too labour-intensive, and I'd still want a physical examination of bikes progressing to Winners Circle. We may yet see a 28 day pre-reg deadline in the future and a renewed demand for digital photos for new entries, but that is up to our Judging Board in a future season.

[T. Cotten]

Well, we did a lot of Virtual Judging during Covid and I was involved in some of it. I found that for paintwork and finishes it was hard to tell original from repainting or replating from the video, and that is a big hit in our judging system. With the narrow field of view from a phone camera I also missed that first broad overall look where you can see that something doesn't look right, such as an incorrect mudguard. The virtual sessions also averaged about 90 minutes, several times more than we normally take, so were a big commitment of judges' time. We also tried to ensure that bikes didn't progress to Winners Circle without a boots-on-the ground examination of the machine. And of course Virtual Judging depends on good broadband, a willing owner, and possibly coordination across multiple time zones. Having said all that, we judged a couple of hundred bikes during lockdown and I hope kept our customers happy with awards and trophies. We learnt lessons that are incorporated in our current judging system. At the beginning of this season owners were asked to include digital photos at the time of pre-registration, later rowed back to being provided on request of the Event Chief Judge. For the 98 point Marque Excellence award, owners still have to follow the 21 day pre-registration deadline, plus supply seven digital photos in a specified format. These are then circulated for comment to marque specialists, as we are surely in the quarter point deduction underbrush by then. I'm not complacent but I think full Virtual Judging will be too labour-intensive, and I'd still want a physical examination of bikes progressing to Winners Circle. We may yet see a 28 day pre-reg deadline in the future and a renewed demand for digital photos for new entries, but that is up to our Judging Board in a future season.

"In just a few sentences", Steve,

You have perfectly illustrated why not only the judging system is futile, but also our hopes for 'new blood'.

....Cotten

[marksg]

I am pretty new to the vintage Harley thing. Been riding for 50 years but not vintage until a few years ago. I really enjoy the learning part. I was also lucky enough to run into some local folks that knew and appreciated the "correct". I have been able to learn a great deal from them.
I bought a well restored bike that was maybe a 90 point bike. I have learned a tremendous amount by having the bike judged. I wasn't about to take a bike that would embarrass me so it made me do a lot of research and learning. Having it judged the first time was a great way of learning the details. I really enjoyed the process although I do agree that you need to go into this with thick skin and the idea of learning from it.
My third judging on this bike was a 99.25 and I have fixed the .75. I am hoping for new judges that can find more to fix. Always something overlooked.
I also was lucky enough to be able to help judge Daytona Meet 2025 and had some very good judges teach as we judged.
I look forward to starting the judging process all over again on another one of my bikes.
Overall I love the process and enjoy the learning.