That new "Marquee" level Judging

[Skirted]

Sorry if this is a little off topic but its kind of applicable

Prior to switching to old bikes 11 years ago I was involved in the old car hobby for 30 years. Included national meet planning, and organizing judging at shows. I have not entered a bike for judging in the AMCA, but have been following the changes, accolades, and complaints of the system.

Bottom line is humans are in charge and humans aren't perfect. The more subjective and variant the details are to be judged, the higher probability of failure and upset members. With so many variations on so many models....and more entering the list every year, it is not a realistic goal for judging program to accurately carry out the mission.

The only way to not be disappointed as an entrant in "any" judged show is to go in with ZERO expectations regardless of how nice your entry is.

The amount of resources it takes planning, implementing, follow-up, administrative work, and finances needed to pull a sophisticated judging operation is nothing short of momentous.

Thinking outside the box, I find myself wondering if its all really worth it for us as caretakers of these machines? Could those massive resources be redirected to create an easily accessible guide to historically accurate restoration resources on various makes/models for those wishing to restore or put back to factory authentic? Would people still bring their bikes to show-off at a meet if there was no judging? Trying to find a Chief Judge and a team of qualified judges at several meets is a daunting task for any organization. A suit of armor or chain-mail should come with the Chief Judge position.

Lastly, I have a few prestigious national awards but they are meaningless dust collectors. The people interaction, life long relationships, driving and riding experiences, all spawned from sharing the hobby are by far a more valuable takeaway from a national meet, and no trophy can ever come close to taking its place. My most memorable national meets during my time in the old car era were always those where I had no dog in the fight. Peace

[rbenash]

I totally respect Cotten - have communicated with him in the past.

I'm not a trophy hunter.

I have spent a lot of effort on this restoration which took about 13 years as a 65FLH is hard to get right and takes lot's of study/research.

I received it at a time when the rare 1 year, last year, first year and in line change parts were still somewhat available but still hard to find and not cheap.

Now those parts are virtually unobtainable. I've been able to document what I've done, even worked a little with Palmer through an associate.There's a reason a thorough '65 restoration is still not in his books, allthough the new edition as some additional info on the 65 Pan.

It's a reference bike now for those trying to get a '65 FLH close. I have had many ongoing conversations and sharing sessions with folks who are actually trying to bring a '65 back. My recommendation is not to restore at this point and do the best to keep it as authentic as possible. I'm wanting to maintain mine as a future reference when I'm gone.

That's all.

I've had my back and forth and deep dive discussion with judges. In my case it was all about the research and getting to the bottom of things relating to authenticity.

So I'm simply wanting to know more about the Marquee judging process and was hoping to talk with someone who has been through it.

Love this club - thanks so much for the dialog!

I'll not be responding any further here. Please PM me if you have been through the process and inform me about how it worked out for you.

Ray

[T. Cotten]

Doin' a '65 to a hundred points, Ray,...

Is impossible, if they didn't come from the Factory a hundred points.
Ignoring the uncounted mid-year changes,...

When I asked a fellow employed at the Factory in 1965 about the nacelle indicator lights, he replied that much of the final assembly was left to dealers. (The fellow's credentials are that he returned next season with Willie G himself; John didn't care to come in.)

The bottom line is that the judging system's criteria are mythical ideals.

....Cotten

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Cotten, I hope it not all about fooling the judges. If you have read the Judging Handbook, please let me know how we can improve the system.

[T. Cotten]

Dear Cotten, you underestimate the awesome skills our members bring to their restorations, and their general goodwill. We don't see many trophy hunters, just members seeking recognition for the work they've put into accurately reconstructing factory correct motorcycles. For unrestored bikes I would discourage trophy hunting, as bringing such a piece from Junior to Senior level will require altering the history of that motorcycle.

You know Steve,...

Your reply was not only condescending to the point of insult, it ignores the obvious fact that anybody can just buy a machine and have it judged without ever getting his hands dirty.

My handbook copy is twenty years old, but I think I have been fooling judges longer; It was my job.

Without a mission statement, we might hope the intent of 'judging' might be to aid all enthusiasts' journeys to improve their machines, in spite of every possible logistical and economical barrier placed in the game. Yet focus is glory for those who can afford to ante up.

I have been suggesting improvements to this forum for years and years:
Make the system useful, by making it accessible to even those who know they don't need a marquee trophy. If the first mile is virtual, then you can save the Meets for the finish line and victory laps, but the hobby can thrive anyway.

A whole lot more will be shared, and saved for posterity.

...Cotten

[Rubone]

I just wish someone would have corrected this post to read Marque (which just means brand) and not continue to be Marquee which is altogether wrong.

[T. Cotten]

I just wish someone would have corrected this post to read Marque (which just means brand) and not continue to be Marquee which is altogether wrong.

Italics weren't enough for you, Robbie?

shocked.jpg

....Cotten

[Keith Kizer]

Let me attempt to answer the original question of why there is Marque Excellence. As Steve stated, Marque Excellence was born from the judging committee's idea of a Winner's Circle Gallery. The idea was to photograph 98 point WC bikes and put them in a gallery so future restorers had a good representation of what I bike would have looked like when it came off the assembly line. The problem was actually taking good photos of motorcycles at the end of judging. It didn't work.

The idea behind the Marque Excellence Award required the high resolution photos to be taken ahead of time. This served two purposes. One, we could share those photos with the judging committee and other Marque Specialist who we were seeking to judge the entry. Second, we already have the photos to post online. The Marque Excellence Gallery has already been in place since Don Dzurick and Curtis Barkley were awarded the very first ME awards.

From my personal standpoint, the program was an immediate success and give near perfect examples of future restorations. - Keith

[jlh3rd]

"Would people still bring their bikes to show-off at a meet if there was no judging? "...Skirted.

yes, ...I do.

[T. Cotten]

..Would people still bring their bikes to show-off at a meet if there was no judging? ...

There are still hundreds of bikes at Davenport, Skirted!

Imagine AMCA booths at auctions and shows for preliminary judging (once the judges figure out their cameras, that is....)

There would be a lot more participation if it were more accessible.

....Cotten

[Keith Kizer]

Skirted... I wanted to respond to your post. Thank you for your insight and prospective of judging. You are correct, it is not easy and quit frankly not fun on the preparation side leading up to any national meet. It takes a small army of volunteers to provide a service to the members. Is the judging system perfect? Absolutely not and never can be. The Marque, not "marquee" as Rubone noted, Excellence is also our attempt to correct any previous judging mistakes. If someone earns the Marque Excellence award, they absolutely deserve it.

There are many previously awarded Winners Circle machines that did not deserve the award. Why? Because if the bike was incorrectly judged the first time by a team of inexperienced judges (for that particular Marque (brand) then it is also possible that the next two team of judges followed the first teams lead. It is possible, rare but possible, that three teams judged a motorcycle and were not experts on the year, make and model. This is also the point of going to pre-entry only. This gives us the opportunity to find the right judges for each year, make and model, even if it means utilizing one judge, "a Marque Specialist" via video, phone, photos, etc.

I can attest that we have disqualified more Marque Excellence entries than have actually been judged. When an entry is received, we challenge a host of judges and brand experts alike to look at the photos and see if they see anything that would prevent this motorcycle from obtaining 98-points. The minimum amount of points required to receive the ME status. If they do, we refund the members registration fee and kindly ask them to bring their motorcycle to the event as a returning Winners Circle entry. There is no charge for existing WC machines to display. It is our way of thanking the owner for sharing their motorcycle with the public.

[exeric]

"Would people still bring their bikes to show-off at a meet if there was no judging? "...Skirted.

yes, ...I do.

When I vended, I always tried to bring a motorcycle to have at my spot. It was nice to have something for people to look at, talk about, it got people to stop and look at what I was selling, and I met a lot of long time friends that way. One of my primary reasons for bringing a bike was in respect to all the old line AMCA members who brought motorcycles when I first got interested in old bikes. Those were formative years for me in this hobby because the owners loved to talk about their bikes and I learned so much from them. Personally, I think those experiences were more valuable than Sunday judging because the bikes were accessible, easy to photograph, and again, the owners loved to talk about their bike.

[RichO]

Eric, For 40 years at all our Chapter meets we have always had more bikes at our Chapter bike show section that is totally separate from our National judging section even though if they want they can display them with the non-judged bikes if they wish. We have our Chapter awards for the non- judged section if people want to try for them. Best British, Japanese, European, American, Competition, Accessorized, and Rat bike and Best of Show. The spectators love it. Also a lot of modified and one of a kind machines. It's also where you find the meet theme bikes. Our yearly Chapter awards are mostly all hand made and hotly sought after. Hence all the machines in that area. The judging is by three club member with the only rule being at least two of them have to pick the bike for that class award. No judging sheets, no points taken off, just a lot of eye candy for our guests and fellow members