Requirements to participate in Road Runs

[Jack K]

I don't post on forums often although I follow those that do almost daily. A little thin skinned maybe and don't really have the expertise necessary. I'm probably going to regret it but I now have an issue, thin skinned or not, I want to air.

For the last year or two, chapters hosting road runs have asked for proof of liability insurance on the bike or bikes that will be used on the road runs. That has not been as problem for me because the State of Texas requires this of all it's residents,,, but what business is it of the AMCA? Now I'm told by a chapter club that I will not be allowed to participate if I show up at their road run without a vehicle registration receipt. I explained that the State of Texas requires a registration receipt only with commercial vehicles, consequently, I did not have nor carry one. Further, antique registration in Texas is for 5 years,,,, the IRS only requires receipts be kept for 3 years.

I was then told, politely, "You can not participate with out this documentation".

The following is my email reply:
"I don't know why you or the Board should expect me to have a receipt I am not required to carry. But, I will make the trip into the county courthouse and pay the fee for a copy of the registration receipt just to attend the road run but I would like to know why. What a load of BS! The State of Texas does not require me to have a registration receipt and the AMCA Board shouldn't either. This may have changed recently and has no effect on me , but folks from the State of Virginia are not required to have liability insurance, consequently, they are not required to carry proof of such. What will those folks do? Just trying to have a little fun shouldn't turn into a big pain in the a$$. I assume you have nothing to do with the conditions to participate and are doing only what you were told but this overbearing oversite is totally unnecessary. I really don't need this. I believe I should go back to doing my own road runs,,, No AMCA needed."

When I wrote the above I was sorta steamed so I probably could have done a better job after some calm reflection but,,,,.
Let me finish by saying there are requirements that I have to meet each day that are lawfully enacted by people I helped to elect to represent me so I comply, sometimes grudgingly, to maintain an orderly society but it's beyond me what benefit society has gained by the Board having the road run participants show their papers before they can proceed, like some Nazi controlled government. That's just not right.

[rwm]

If your anything like me you would just go on the ride. none toll roads in america are public and free to use by legal drivers. If you don't want to piss anybody off do it their way. lawyers have made so hard to do anything. someone planed the event and route. this makes them liable (in a lawyers eyes). So the want to cover there arse.

[hogchild71]

Jack. Thank you for your comments. Below is an excerpt from the AMCA P&P Manual, Appendix G, National Road Run Guidelines.( Available for all to read at antiquemotorcycle.org)

In order to be in compliance with state motor vehicle liability insurance laws, every registered
National Road Run owner/rider must have current liability insurance on the motorcycle(s)
intended to be ridden on the Road Run. If the owner/rider fails to produce written proof of
current liability insurance at the time of registration at the Road Run site, that owner/rider shall
not be permitted to register or participate on the Road Run. It shall be the sponsoring Chapter's
responsibility to assure compliance with this policy. Each Chapter shall keep a record that every
owner/rider's current written liability insurance coverage was checked. Refunds to those who fail
to produce proof of insurance at the time of registration on site is the Chapter's decision. Notice
of this liability insurance requirement shall be included on all Chapter advertisements for the
Road Run and on all correspondence with registered participants prior to the Road Run.

Liability Insurance is for your protection as well as others taking part in the RR.
Best regards, Fred

[AFJ]

I don't post on forums often although I follow those that do almost daily. A little thin skinned maybe and don't really have the expertise necessary. I'm probably going to regret it but I now have an issue, thin skinned or not, I want to air.

For the last year or two, chapters hosting road runs have asked for proof of liability insurance on the bike or bikes that will be used on the road runs. That has not been as problem for me because the State of Texas requires this of all it's residents,,, but what business is it of the AMCA? Now I'm told by a chapter club that I will not be allowed to participate if I show up at their road run without a vehicle registration receipt. I explained that the State of Texas requires a registration receipt only with commercial vehicles, consequently, I did not have nor carry one. Further, antique registration in Texas is for 5 years,,,, the IRS only requires receipts be kept for 3 years.

I was then told, politely, "You can not participate with out this documentation".

The following is my email reply:
"I don't know why you or the Board should expect me to have a receipt I am not required to carry. But, I will make the trip into the county courthouse and pay the fee for a copy of the registration receipt just to attend the road run but I would like to know why. What a load of BS! The State of Texas does not require me to have a registration receipt and the AMCA Board shouldn't either. This may have changed recently and has no effect on me , but folks from the State of Virginia are not required to have liability insurance, consequently, they are not required to carry proof of such. What will those folks do? Just trying to have a little fun shouldn't turn into a big pain in the a$$. I assume you have nothing to do with the conditions to participate and are doing only what you were told but this overbearing oversite is totally unnecessary. I really don't need this. I believe I should go back to doing my own road runs,,, No AMCA needed."

When I wrote the above I was sorta steamed so I probably could have done a better job after some calm reflection but,,,,.
Let me finish by saying there are requirements that I have to meet each day that are lawfully enacted by people I helped to elect to represent me so I comply, sometimes grudgingly, to maintain an orderly society but it's beyond me what benefit society has gained by the Board having the road run participants show their papers before they can proceed, like some Nazi controlled government. That's just not right.

As I understand the AMCA requirement (Appendix G in the Policy Manual) for liability insurance on motorcycles ridden in National Road Runs it has been required in the last few years because the insurance policy held by the AMCA to protect its members, volunteers and officials who participate in such events requires that riders in these events carry the usually required motorcycle liability and other mandatory insurance as well. As required by their particular State. I realize that in Virginia one can pay $500 to a state fund get their plate and have no insurance whatsoever. In this litigious age that is taking a big chance - but some people presumably have to do it.

As I understand your complaint, it not a problem for you to have the required paperwork, you just don't see why you have to and think that those that require this are "like some Nazi controlled government". Read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" to find out what Hitler and his gang were really like.

I have participated in AMCA runs over the last 25 years or so and have always come prepared with the license and insurance papers for the old bike, my motorcycle driver's license, and the required rider and motorcycle equipment for the particular State. (New York requires "Lights-on" even on antique motorcycles so temporary battery lighting was added to the 1927 bike's acetylene lighting system.) I have been laughed at by other AMCA run participants because I wear a motorcycle helmet even in States where it is not required - because my province and country require a motorcycle helmet to be worn and I want to leave the insurance company no grounds to abrogate their responsibilities if an accident were to occur. None of this bothers me, since I would rather ride the old bikes in good company over new and interesting roads, than sit and look at the bikes in the garage.

AFJ

[fillibuster]

I'm running a permanent historical plate, and the vehicle registration has made me nervous lately. I'm not so sure that my state's records are reliable. Gaining a fresh copy of that registration has been frustrating. It is NOT difficult to prove a long history of insurance on the bike, as that has been through an agent whom I've trusted for over 25 years (hope he doesn't retire).
Thanks for the reminder, though! Time flies, and September is just around the corner.
As to your liberties/responsibilities, try to convince yourself that you have a reasonable balance.

[4 Ridin' Rev]

The question is about a vehicle registration receipt, not insurance. Does the AMCA Bible say anything about that?

Jack, I want to make sure I understand the problem - you have a registration card but not the receipt? Is this maybe a problem of terminology - maybe the state in question uses the receipt as the proof of registration? I live in West (by God) Virginia. Our antique plates are 10 year plates. I have to renew mine next month. I've carried the same registration card for the last 10 years; I only kept the receipt until the permanent card came. I doubt that the DMV could give me a copy of my receipt from 10 years ago.

And I'm curious - in what state is the Road Run in question?

[Jack K]

Read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" to find out what Hitler and his gang were really like.

AFJ, read that. WWII and events leading to it have long been of interest to me. I know, I know,,, the Board is not murdering their opposition.

Being clear has become so difficult. You would be correct if you thought I didn't think it was the AMCA's business to know whether or not I carried liability insurance or was foolish enough not to. You would also be correct if you thought I didn't think the AMCA should require me to carry a receipt not required by state law. You would again be correct if you thought I didn't like the idea of the Board promulgating rules to impose on me with no input or enough information to find out what is required of vehicle operators around the country. It just frosts me to have BS handed to me and then being told to like it.

To register a vehicle in Texas you pay a fee. You are then issued a license plate or a sticker to place on the license plate and along with which ever is applicable (plate or sticker) you are given a receipt. This receipt is required to be carried in all commercial vehicles. If it is not a commercial vehicle the operator is not required to have it. From experience, the trooper knows who you are before you get to the side of the road.

The question about which chapter,,,. Well, I signed up for two road runs this fall. Both state in the adds in the March/April magazine that "You must provide proof of insurance and registration at check-in". One goes on to add "to participate in Road Run activities.". I have heard from only one chapter.

[4 Ridin' Rev]

So if I understand you correctly, for non-commercial vehicles in Texas the plate and sticker are the proof of registration. If that's correct, it should be possible to direct the registrar to the Texas DMV website (or whatever branch of the Texas bureaucracy handles such things...) where they could read the relevant provision. That or go online yourself, print the relevant statute or section of the code and send it to them. That might be easier for you than trying to get a copy of the receipt...

[AFJ]

To register a vehicle in Texas you pay a fee. You are then issued a license plate or a sticker to place on the license plate and along with which ever is applicable (plate or sticker) you are given a receipt. This receipt is required to be carried in all commercial vehicles. If it is not a commercial vehicle the operator is not required to have it. From experience, the trooper knows who you are before you get to the side of the road.

The question about which chapter,,,. Well, I signed up for two road runs this fall. Both state in the adds in the March/April magazine that "You must provide proof of insurance and registration at check-in". One goes on to add "to participate in Road Run activities.". I have heard from only one chapter.

Jack K.

Obviously Texas does it differently, and the cops have a data link to the license records office to ID the owner of the plate and what bike goes with a plate, and that you had insurance when you got the plate (or sticker) for the bike.

Up here in the Great White North we have a plate, a validation sticker, but the rider carries a paper license detailing the bike, plate #, bike serial #, owner name, address, date of licence expiry, etc. The rider also carries an insurance certificate which details the bike, serial #, insurance policy #, Insurance Co., and the date when the policy came in force and the date it expires which is likely different from the date of licence expiry.It also states that the insurance coverage is valid in all Canadian provinces and all American States so that when travelling in Canada or in the US, the local police can determine that the bike is properly plated and insured and by looking at my driver's license picture determine that I am the motorcycle owner and the guy on the motorcycle .

How does a Texas cop determine if your bike insurance is in force? do you not have to carry "proof of insurance" and an ownership document of some sort?

AFJ

[Jack K]

For the last year or two, chapters hosting road runs have asked for proof of liability insurance on the bike or bikes that will be used on the road runs. That has not been as problem for me because the State of Texas requires this of all it's residents,,, but what business is it of the AMCA?

AFJ, as I wrote in the first post.

4 Ridin' Rev
So if I understand you correctly, for non-commercial vehicles in Texas the plate and sticker are the proof of registration. If that's correct, it should be possible to direct the registrar to the Texas DMV website (or whatever branch of the Texas bureaucracy handles such things...) where they could read the relevant provision. That or go online yourself, print the relevant statute or section of the code and send it to them. That might be easier for you than trying to get a copy of the receipt...

As it happens, I just got a new registration sticker for the plate on my pickup ( i think if you are a Texan you must own a pickup) and the last 3 lines read:
THIS RECEIPT TO BE CARRIED IN ALL COMMERCIAL VEHICLES.
purchased registration remains with this vehicle and
will not be refunded if the vehicle is sold.

Capital letters were not used by me for emphasis, it is printed that way on the receipt. Strangest thing about that is the last two lines. County tax assessors and state DMV folks want everyone to know you are to remove the license plate from the vehicle when you sell it. Presumably to encourage the new owner to purchase a new license plate maybe.

[AFJ]

Jack K.


How does a Texas cop determine if your bike insurance is in force? do you not have to carry "proof of insurance" and an ownership document of some sort?

AFJ

According to the TexasSure program of the Texas state govt. and their "Frequently asked questions" section of their website -

"If I have insurance coverage and am unable to provide proof of insurance, can this program help?"

"For the drivers benefit, the proof of insurance card should be carried at all times. The law requires "the motorist or operator of a vehicle to provide evidence of financial responsibility." Further, Transportation Code 601.053(c) as added by the 83rd Texas Legislature requires a peace officer with access to the verification program to check insurance coverage through TexasSure prior to issuing a citation to a driver without their insurance card. It is important to note that not all law enforcement agencies have access to the system.

In addition, drivers should be aware that there may be other situations where drivers are required to show their proof of insurance card."

I take it from the above that your motorcycle insurance company has issued, or will issue, your "proof of insurance card". Presumably that card also indicates you are insured in other states, as well. If you self-insure, as is possible in Texas, presumably you have documentation through that process of depositing surety.

AFJ

[fillibuster]

quote: "purchased registration remains with this vehicle and
will not be refunded if the vehicle is sold."

here in SD, if I trade it in or sell it, the commercial plates are refunded by the amount of time left on them, i.e. 6 months left = 50% refund. ... (so you can HAVE your texas! sarc)

Not considered yet: would any jokesters/independents out there choose to ride a bike (on a road run) that otherwise is not licensed or insured? I have not, but I know a few who have. Perhaps our managers know that this can happen, and Murphy's law, you know, "if it can, it will".

[Jack K]

... (so you can HAVE your texas! sarc)

When you veer off your own topic you get what you have coming.

[fillibuster]

When you veer off your own topic you get what you have coming.

Jack, I apologize. I only meant it sportingly.
But again, I'll stand by my last statement regarding unregistered and un-insured bikes getting into road runs. It was more than 10 years ago, and there were no casualties, we all were fortunate. That good fortune couldn't last.

[Rollo]

Jack,

You cited Virginia and said they don't require registrations and proof of insurance. As a life long Virginia resident, I can assure you that they require both. I also have gone on many AMCA Roads Runs ( just came back from the New Hampshire one) and this has been the requirement for years. I don't know what they do in Texas but I do know what they do in Virginia as I have over 15 vehicle tagged and insured here. I have permanent antique tags and we do no have to go through annual safety inspections as required for vehicles without them, but we do have to sign a verification that the bike is equipped with all the properly functioning safety equipment at the time of manufacture. I keep mine in a plastic baggy on my bikes so I never have the fumble around to find them when asked ( and I have been ). There are a ton of folks out their who "register" one bike and simply switch the tags to what ever they want to ride and never insure them. Frankly I don't want some person to hit me on my bike and not have insurance and riding an "non-legal" bike. Trust me I have been on both sides of that equation and as a matter of fact it happened a couple of times on the New Hampshire Run. There is a reason for all this so if you want to participate in a National Road Run have your paper work straight and with you when you, show up because you will be required to provide it for sure.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA #12766