VMCC members? Banbury Run---

[mcarver]

Hello everyone,

On the subject of early bikes, riding them and all of the related issues, here is my input: I have been accumulating parts for my 1908 Indian magneto ignition single for 10 years, I am 2/3 done.... I am progressing slowly due to high standards, lack of unlimited funds, and simply the limited availability of useable original parts.... I am co-owner of a cnc machine shop and could make many of the missing items I need, but would prefer original. I would love (more than many can imagine) to ride this bike before its 100th birthday (build date on the mag mount is 12-08-08) on a club sponsored ride. I have no reservations about riding early bikes, I have a 1947 Whizzer that I have ridden over 120 miles per day (I have done the tiddler tour on Vashon Island, WA .. if you know it you are aware of the amount of pedaling required!!). I know of more than a dozen early bikes (pre 1915) that could be assembled from parts that various owners have, but due to many reasons are not for sale and will most likely never be assembled during the current owners' lifetimes!!!! We all know that there are many, many parts, engines, frames, wheels etc around that could be used, but probably won't be. Let's do what we can to change this.... why should enough parts to build several bikes languish untouched and unavailable to those with the ambition to build them ????? They don't have to be $20k, $50k, or $100k machines!!! How many people who pay this much are willing to ride them??? And why are early bikes bringing so much? Is it because they are really worth it???? or are those who have deep pockets simply "investing" in something they hope will appreciate???? Let's take a good hard look at what this antique motorcycle hobby was like 20, 30 or 40 years ago... I know we can't go back in time, but maybe, just maybe we can remember why we were interested in machines that had little or no value to others at the time. Who gives a rip that someone will spend $30k or more for a 1934 Vl???? Many old timers tell me that they wouldn't even own certain bikes because they weren't good reliable motorcycles in "the day". Early bikes still exist in the raw state, we just have to seek them out, this may mean we have to convince certain people to let go of a strangle hold on bikes, basket cases and parts hiding away in boxes and garages. All in all, let me say that I intend to ride my 1908 Indian as much as possible when I can complete it, I wll also continue to seek out as much early machinery as I can find and finagle (beg, borrow but not steal!) I will never shy from riding an early machine on a road run, just give me a chance!
-Mike Carver

[AdminGuy]

Good points Mike! Bravo! I sincerely hope you get the stuff your looking for. And what ARE you looking for?
I noticed that you did indirectly answered some of your own questions.

OK- I'm stepping up on the soap box now.

Parts need to be liberated for guys that are accually going to keep, maintain and ride the bikes.

I'd make the parts, age them, assemble and ride the bike. (Maybe you'll find original stuff later and can swap it out). Flood the market with the spares from your castings. ebay repost. It's gotten to the point that very few people accually care wheather a part is original. Speculators don't know, and certainly don't care. Your 08 with 1/3 repo parts will have the exact same value, or close to, an original bike. I think guys who place alot of value on original parts are living in a dream world. Those days are gone. The stuff is so rare now that it's cheaper and faster to just make a "excellent quality" small production run of the stuff. Case in point. Look at how many big money bikes can almost be entirely built from repo parts. Quite a few when you think about it.
But I hope the stuff you need surfaces.

Guys who horde parts are unique. Depression era thinking in many cases I believe. "Never know when your going to need it!" When you walk through the estate and talk to the family, you get the real picture of what transpired. Very, very sad. And all for not.... the familys take the value list and toss it - in favor of getting all the junk moved off of the property quickly. A bike that's disassembled sits at a fraction of its true value. Or WORSE -the family thinks it's worth millions and no major players will buy it. So it all sits in purgatory for a couple more years until people sober up.

Why not help someone out? What's the big deal? Do it while your alive and can enjoy it! Or at least let a guy copy a part that you have. Why do some guys need 80 plus bikes?

Or worse! 300 plus bikes! OHHH Paul you should hook up with so and so. He's got barns full of stuff. Top secret!!! And I always reply.... so let him die with it, I don't care. He certainly doesn't ride it, doesn't participate in the community, won't lend it to a museum. Little to no contact with other riders. An excercise of self-stimulation. Really, If your not going to share what you really love - what's the point? Help someone out, inspire someone, teach somebody something valueable you've learned, pass your knowledge.

Along those same lines I'm going to go see if I can adopt a senior fella I've met. I'm going to get him out to some meetings and try to get him to go on a road trip or two with me. Socially reintegrate him. He's a bitter old drunken cuss. But if I bring a rock solid pretty lady along, I'll bet he'll change his tune a bit. Loading, unloading, working on bike, starting bike. Simple stuff for me. If I have to rig a custom built rope hoist sled up his stairs - I'll do it. It would make me real happy to just see him have some fun again on one of his bikes! Sitting around, getting drunk and stareing at your bikes has really got to **** after 20 plus years.

I'm talkin to this fella the other day way out east. He's a really good guy, gotta be around 74yrs old. He shownin me this and that project. Really cool stuff. And then we get to a certain point, and I stop, and point at a real nice project, and ask him. So when are you going to get around to completing that one? When your 96 if your lucky, I'd think!
Made him think a bit. It really kinda shocked me that this hadn't occured to him. Time just kinda sneeks up on you sometimes I guess.

I'm not a vulture. Far from it. I just like to shoot the bull with guys who have alot more knowledge and experience than I do. I like the stories. I get a real kick out of it. Gives it all a sense of time and place.

[koanes]

I don't think the huge piles of motorcycles and parts that some have accumulated can be explained away as simple self indulgence or greed. It is a disease, an addiction. I went and bought another old pan last week and on the return trip, my brother, who had come along to help load the bike decided I needed a good talking to. He is younger and presumably less the wise, but he made a good argument. He said that I was just like the alcoholic that kept a bottle in every room in the house, always within reach, only I substituted old motorcycle parts. I start to vibrate and shake if I can't get my hands on some greasy old part to fool with. He thought that I should pick three of my projects to finish, as that was probably all I could do at my current rate of completion before I am dead. I am only 49yrs old. It would be very hard to part with most of my projects, I can remember where I found almost every piece I bought for them. So I understand why these old timers with their hoards are reluctant to let anything go even when they realize their building days are over. I am going to try to pick up the pace, my kids are grown and have moved on so I should have more time. However, if I am unable to move these things along a little faster, I am going to cut some of them loose so others can enjoy them. Riding season is just around the corner, I've got to get some work done before that happens.

[Alan Yeomans]

The Banbury and the Haleson

Wotcha y'all.
The AMCA is well represented at this years' Banbury with President Pete Gagen entered on a 1912 Triumph and a AMCA Team entry (3) all riding Harley Davidsons. We have 3 Indians entered, a 1928 Indian Big Chief, a 1915 model B light twin and a 7hp Road Racer. The Big Chief is being ridden over from Sweden.
We have 4 Harley's, a 1913 9E, a 1915 11F, a 1916 Model F and a 1930 VL. If curiosities take your fancy amongst ours we have a Quadrant Tricar you can bank into bends and a 1909 Phanomobile which beggers description so there is a photo attached.
The Haleson steamer would have easily taken the award for technical interest if it could only finish ( a machine has to finish the course before it can qualify for any award). I think the best it has done on a Banbury is 8 miles (the shortest route is around 30 miles, the longest around 65). I will get some details about the Haleson together for you as soon as I can.
Alan Yeomans.
I have already sent this message once but I think it just vanished into the ether, so this is by way of a back up.

[INLINE4NUT]

Boy I think you people should really STOP and think before you flap your gums!
Number one who are any of you or me for that matter think you are to have the nerve to say what youve said! If ive collected parts bikes for 60 years and dont want to sell for any reason SORRY this is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA!!! If they are mine I can melt them,burn them or..keep them to I die, then my childern can keep them for as, long as they want!
It would be nice to get at some of these parts and see more bikes on the road,but the point here is being missed! What Ive seen of late is people with lots of MONEY thinking it can BUY EVERYTHING and EVERYONE......Well I for one state that just isnt so!
Ive worked hard to save up some extra parts for my bikes, are they or the bikes for sale......???? NO! and I hope they never will be! So that being said whos got any nice NOS or good used Indian Four parts for sale and while we are on the subject I dont want to pay a fortune for them after all we all know everything is way over priced............

[c.o.]

Now that this ball is rolling. I was thinking I should go around with it. I am in the under 40 range as well and can see where the guys in my age group are coming from. Gone are the days (well mostly) that your going to turn up that old Merkel, Excelsior, Pierce-Arrow (insert your other favorite marque here) in the barn/shed etc. There used to be a core group of people scattered across this continent and others that bought/sold/traded these machines without the high dollar stigma that surrounds these wonderful time machines today. I guess in a way there still is if you are in the right circles. But these wonderful time machines that we love have been discovered by the mainstream and are fetching quite high prices and for the most part putting them out of the average young guys grasp.

I personally do not resent any old timer for having a barn full of bikes. I can understand why they keep them at all costs. It is like koanes said, it is an addiction. Hell I'm addicted and my oldest bike is a '41 Scout (a project at that). It is a pity though when bikes get swallowed up and never made accessible to the average joe or ever ridden again. Or they rot away in a shed or barn out there when they could be bringing enjoyment to others. The use of these machines is a large part of what keeps motorcycle history alive.

I love nothing more that to chat with a fellow that has a few decades on me. It's like Paul said, it's a real thrill to chew the fat with a guy that has a significant advantage in the knowledge and know how department. It garners a certain respect for that individual.

I don't think that any of us are really vultures trying to take over our elders collections. I wouldn't try to scoop parts off of a fellow that needs or possibly may need for a machine that he uses or actually eventually intends to restore. It's that project that your probably not going to ever get to or that fringe piece that your not actually ever going to use. I even need to look out in my shed now. I can be accused of having a few Harley parts in the shed and I haven't owned a Harley in about 8 years!

There are those of you lucky enough to own these awsome early machines and those of us that are waiting in line. I will eventually have an earlier machine, partly because I have a need to hold onto the history of our motorcycle predecessors and partly because I am willing to wait my turn. All I can hope is for the high cost part to taper off or easier access to sitting machines so that I can get into it. I guess I've rambled enough. We should be thankful that we have forums like this to express our views. Let's keep theses old machines alive.

[LouieMCman]

Seems this thread went from the older bikes on road runs to bitching about peoples piles of bike parts.
Back to the original point....I found an article in the Antique Motorcycle from 1996 on the Pre-1916 Carson Valley MC Tour where there was 55 pre16 bikes running! They ran about 50 miles a day for three days. This is what I would like to see again. When is the last time anyone has seen that many pre 16 bikes in one place, let alone running 50 miles a day? Go to any of our swap meets and you might see 2 or 3 total pre 16's. And most of them the owners refuse to run for fear of breaking something that can't be replaced. Not to mention the judging of the ones that no one has heard run in the last 50 years.... but thats another thread.......

Louie

[c.o.]

You could be right about the bitching Louie, but I think we are on the same page in wanting to see these old bikes getting out and getting used.

[AFJ]

Originally posted by LouieMCman
Seems this thread went from the older bikes on road runs to bitching about peoples piles of bike parts.
Back to the original point....I found an article in the Antique Motorcycle from 1996 on the Pre-1916 Carson Valley MC Tour where there was 55 pre16 bikes running! They ran about 50 miles a day for three days. This is what I would like to see again. When is the last time anyone has seen that many pre 16 bikes in one place, let alone running 50 miles a day?

Louie

When is the last time anyone has seen that many pre-16 bikes running....?

March 20th from London to Brighton (60 miles) in England they got at least 400 to 450 1914 or earlier motorcycles for the Annual Pioneer Run.

AFJ

[c.o.]

Wow! They certainly got it going on over the pond don't they AFJ? That is really impressive! I wish I could have seen that.

[LouieMCman]

That's what we need in the states, an annual pioneer run. Somewhere away from traffic though and of course a few "refreshment" stop along the way! Maybe one of our Chapters can organize one somewhere in a central location....

Louie

[AdminGuy]

Thanks Alan for report. Look forward to some pictures. I really enjoy the steam machines.

C.O. - can you post a pic of your projects current state in scout sect. Thanks.

[Barry Brown]

Just got an email from a friend over there. total of 344 pre 1914 bikes participated in the London to Brighton! everything from a watercooled 4 cylinder Wilkinson , Pierce 4 to Sunbeams and Humbers etc. etc. He sent a few pics

[Pete Gagan]

Hi All:
If you'd like a first hand tale of the L-B Pioneer Run, look at our Summer 2004 magazine. I rode the VMCC's 1902 Dreadnought in the run last year, and have participated three times before.
While we have nothing to rival the Pioneer Run, there are some pre-16 events in California, principally the Minden Run, which unfortunately follows Davenport, and usually clashes with one of our regular AMCA runs. It's put on by the Horseless Carriage Club, but is for bikes only.
I would be very happy to push for an event for early bikes, as its a passion of mine, but except for talk, there seems to be very little action amongst our members. Get together, and do something, and I'll be glad to help.
Pete Gagan, President, AMCA

[Bob Kelley]

Here's another run with a lot of really old bikes, in Australia. They all seem to be either outside the US or not affiliated with the AMCA.

With this one, the vintage bikes left first and set the pace. With many of our own national runs, I get the impression the routes are faster secondary highways with enough traffic that you feel you must keep pace. A person or two will sometimes show up on truly vintage iron anyway, but I've heard more than one person say they prefer to ride their more modern antiques because of the pace and the distance.

On this run, despite a much smaller pool of bikes thanks to Australia's tiny population as compared to ours, they had:

1905 Peugeot
1907 Triumph
1911 Norton
1914 Matchless
1914 BSA

And those are just the ones I saw mentioned (scroll down to the the awards categories near the end).

http://www.vvcmcc.org/cr240104.htm