AMCA Forum is a backwater of the internet

[pisten-bully]

Same goes for Kevin's build of #97, his Cannonball bike; he's not been active and has gone to another site .

Steve, the only other site I frequent is ADVrider.com (382,000 registered users with 3k +/- on the site at any one time) and Kevin was a regular poster there on his builds, but he hasn't been on there either, since late October. So I think (and know for myself) that life gets in the way... and as you know keeping up with a build thread takes commitment, and time. Hoping the only reason we haven't heard from Kevin is simply because he's been busy!

[Keith Kizer]

Gentlemen, If I may offer a few options and ideas. First and foremost the most important component to any forum is its moderators. And in our case, that is just one person, Mike Love. Without Mike and those before him, none of this would be possible. Even though I'm the only paid employee, excluding sub-contractors, of the club, this club could not exist without its volunteers. Any Board member can tell you, I put in 65-80 hours a week and work seven days a week. Without people like Mike we would be in trouble. I only offer the aforementioned as my excuse for not visiting the Forum more often. Lately my weekly reason for posting on the forum is to update this year's obituaries.

In regards to the Forum converting visitors to members, that is tricky. Since they cannot post without being a member, hopefully the content they see will soon entice them to join. One brand new feature you will read about in my column in the March/April issue of the magazine is a downloadable searchable spreadsheet that allows Members Only to search any of topics of the digital copies of the magazine going back to its existence in 1960. This is exactly the answer that Jim D was looking for and it's now here. Regardless of the information members find on the Forum, most will benefit from the hundreds of stories and thousands of photos over the last 60 years. Good incentive to join. You can check this out now by logging into the AMCA Website and going to the Document Library's Archive Magazine section.

I appreciate Max's suggestion of opening the forum up to non-members, but that would take away one of the main selling points of being a member. It would also require having a dozen more moderators to keep the spammers away. A Free AMCA forum for everyone could end up with no forum for anyone. Too risky. Our Facebook page takes six moderators to keep up with it and keeping it from turning into something other than it's original intention. Promoting the Forum on our Facebook page is a good idea. We can work on that.

ChuckTheBeaterTruck makes a good point that we (National) need to do a better job of promoting the Forum in the magazine. Point taken and we will resolve.

I only temporarily hijacked this conversation to give you guys a sneak peak at the new Magazine archeology. Thanks supporting the forums and thank you for your continued loyalty to AMCA membership.

[BoschZEV]

because these communities are more active and you get comments that are valuable to you. ... What's a backwater for one can likely be the fountain of youth for another.

That's exactly right. There have been enough valuable suggestions over the three years since I started that Ariel thread that the effort I've made in writing my posts has been well worthwhile to me.

Interestingly, the site where it's posted (Britbike) basically deals with British bikes from the '50s and '60s, and within that time range mostly Triumphs and BSAs, and Nortons to a lesser extent. The Ariel Forum has less than 1.5% the number of posts of the Triumph, and 1928 puts the bike well out of the age range of interest to most people on that site. Despite that, enough people (and bots) have found their way to the backwater Ariel Forum to generate nearly 1M views because, I have to assume, they stumbled across it and found the content of interest.

OK, if this means interesting threads can attract people even when posted in backwater locations, why are so few on the AMCA Forum? To repeat some of what I wrote a week ago:

all but the AMCA site allow me to see new posts in no more than one click after opening the site. The AMCA site forces me to navigate around the screen to click on four places (and, that's only after I figured out some of the non-obvious places to find them), at which point the use of excess white space only allows me to see five recent posts. Other sites allow me to see anywhere from 12 to 20. As a result, I can click on any one of those other sites, scan for new posts of interest, and if there are none be done with the site in no more than 15 seconds. That's not possible with the AMCA site. ...

Of the eleven sites mentioned above, the design of the AMCA's site is the worst. And not by a little bit. ... I'm afraid the present site design is too off-putting to attract a wider audience given that most people who frequent the web will be used to much more user-friendly designs. And, most people who don't frequent the web are unlikely to overcome the frustration of using this site. This might have been one of the better designs in 2000, but it is hopelessly outdated and clumsy in 2021.

p.s. I wanted to have just one quote box at the bottom of my post but no matter what I did the software insisted on breaking it into two. I even exited the site entirely, deleted previously saved content when I opened it again, but to no avail. Sigh... Software that refuses to let you do what you try to do is very annoying.

[Steve Swan]

This post is an observation, not a suggested solution.

I've been paying attention to "data" from this site for several weeks. Seldom are there even a dozen members signed on (i.e. 0.1% of the AMCA membership), and I've yet to see as many as 18. A typical day will see 6-12 posts, i.e. only one every few hours. What this means is many people who check out this site are likely to conclude it doesn't have information they're looking for, or discussions of interest to them, and thus not bother returning to it.

What the very low visitation and posting rate means is many people are unlikely to post to this site since they will rightly conclude that very few others will read what they write. Similarly, other people are unlikely to come to this site because the very few posts means it is unlikely they will find the information or discussions of interest to them.

This is a classic chicken or egg situation which means, unfortunately, it is likely this site will remain a largely-unvisited backwater of the internet unless something significant happens to change the situation.

If I had a solution to suggest, I would have suggested it, but I don't.

Bosch ZEV, i would suggest your reality of AMCA forum being a "backwater" is in no small part due to the same reason you are much more active about your Ariel build on https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...l-c#Post691207 is for the same reason i am much more active on https://www.facebook.com/groups/1693827977564678/ because these communities are more active and you get comments that are valuable to you. Same goes for Kevin's build of #97, his Cannonball bike; he's not been active and has gone to another site. Case in point is my "Frank" build here on this forum, if you were to look at that build, much of the posts are mine in attempt to keep the thread alive as well as i value what this forum offers, and i do very much appreciate the time the few others have taken to post their comments on "Frank." For the most part, in the cases of your '28 Ariel and my "Frank" builds contrasted with the content of other threads that get a lot more activity, it would seem that folks only post on what they're interested in... What's a backwater for one can likely be the fountain of youth for another.

[vph-d]

I'm not a fan of the new look. In addition, I was locked out of the forum and website from Thanksgiving until last week, due to updates. I was locked out about a year ago due to an update. I'm just too lazy to put much effort into getting re-registered, or finding out why I no longer have access.
VPH-D

[BoschZEV]

It didn't take me long to realize that the published information was incomplete in some cases, or occasionally, some complete BS that someone thought was correct.

It turns out I've manage to assemble what is arguably the world's largest private collection of English-language motorcycle books, and over the past two years, along with my co-curator from the Guggenheim's 'The Art of the Motorcycle', we created 'The Motorcycle: Design, Art, Desire' that will be running through April 26 at Brisbane's Gallery of Modern Art.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_OplQD58Kpi6ChWlWrErru2dKfT3cjw2

In writing the book of the same title to accompany this exhibition, published in late 2020 by Phaidon Press, I made scores of trips back and forth to my library to check facts on the 100 machines we have in the exhibition.

https://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Design-Art-Desire/dp/1838661638

Although I have literally shelves full of Harley-Davidson books, it was by far the most difficult marque to find accurate information on. Most of those books are fact-free, where "facts" are listed, often they are obviously incorrect, and often those "facts" were then propagated through subsequent books by other authors. This highlights the need for actual facts to be unearthed and presented in a location where they are widely accessible.

I compiled this information into a document, with parts photos, and help from members here, and others. Unfortunately, this document is too big to upload to the forum, so it is unpublished so far.

On another site I documented my rebuild of the 1928 Ariel I rode in the 2018 Cannonball, and I've continued that thread as I've re-rebuilt it after that cross-country ride.

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...l-c#Post691207

The Word document containing the posts in that thread sits at 482 pages, so it is by far the most comprehensive "shop manual" in existence for a 1928 Ariel.

Although not many people ever will own or rebuild one of these machines, the information in that thread would be invaluable to the few who will. Unfortunately, there's no way to know what will happen to the web version of that information once the person who owns and operates the site where it is located is no longer with us. It would be nice if there were a way to ensure the information would remain available in the future, even if very few people would make use of it.

Related to the "backwater" theme of this current thread, within the next week or so my thread on the rebuild of a 1928 Ariel will pass 1 million views. No doubt many of those "views" are by bots, but even the fact that bots find their way to a thread on such an obscure topic on a different site, but don't seem to find their way to threads on the AMCA site, speaks to the solitude of the backwater.

[aumick10]

Heads its correct, tails it isn't!
The more information and documents you have, the more likely you are to be correct.

[T. Cotten]

So who determines this singular 'reality', Folks?

AMCA judges?

That's inviting.

....Cotten

[aumick10]

I have to agree with Bosch ZEV with his description of reality, There is only one reality, everything else is a "Perceived reality" shaped by whatever information a person has access to, understands, or perceives in their own way. With so much information/Disinformation available in this information age, I find it hard to state what the reality of anything is. All i can say is what my perception of reality is based on gathering a range of information, then have a "scientific guess"
Sorry if this is a bit philosophical for the forum.

I have been following this thread with much interest. I have built machines all my life, so any mechanical issues i come across are easy to work out.
When i was about to retire a few years ago, i brought some JD projects to keep me busy.
As i started going through what i had, and what was not year correct, i joined the AMCA and started using the virtual library and forum.

It didn't take me long to realize that the published information was incomplete in some cases, or occasionally, some complete BS that someone thought was correct.(Guilty)
I quickly realized two things, Research everything i could and ask questions on the forum .Most of my novice questions were answered on the forum.
Most models after 1930 are well documented by books like Palmers books, however there seems to be a lot less from 1930 and earlier.

My search for the correct year by year ignition systems is one example, as my projects had parts from every year possible. I compiled this information into a document, with parts photos, and help from members here, and others. Unfortunately, this document is too big to upload to the forum, so it is unpublished so far.

The idea of a technical section appeals to me, but i think it has some pro's and con's.

I think there is already a technical Forum on this site. I would prefer to see a forum of technical documents, where technical information can be posted and saved, something similar to the Virtual Library, or may be it should become part of the virtual library. This is already only accessible to members, so it may help draw some more activity to that site. If we post technical articles in this forum, and restrict it to members only, it may entice more people to join and use the forum. Unfortunately, i don't know if this fits with the AMCA philosophy of keeping information available to everyone.

If we increase the information stored, I expect server size limitations may come into play.
So no solutions proposed, just talking points.

[T. Cotten]

All bets are off, Folks,...

If you think there is one 'reality', especially when it comes to vintage motorcycles!

Consensus is compiled mythology: Legacy, some legends, and occasional lies. Every enthusiast's 'reality' is a sum of information available, good or bad.

Our task is to expand enthusiasts' realities, and hope they enjoy it.

...Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Steve Swan: Thanks for your many JD restoration posts. They are still "go-to" information for those of us with JDs.

In my opinion, more threads like Steve's would be the sort of thing that would attract and involve more members. But not everyone has the mechanical skills and / or the tech skills to bring it all together like that.

Peter

Thanks Peter for your kind words. imho, one of the exemplars of a build thread was Kevin's build of "Patience," his #97 Cannonball build. I don't know where he has gone, but his build was one that I learned a lot from.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

but only 0.1% of AMCA members are posting here. If the site were useful, people would post here, and if people posted here, the site would be useful.

This is very true . . .and it's also true that an extreme minority of AMCA members participate in the judging program.

Yet, as a club, we highly value what judging teaches us about our old motorbikes and how it encourages the industry to improve the reproductions they offer. As such, we choose to supplement the judging program far beyond the fees charged for participation or the number of people directly impacted by the judging program. This includes multiple mentions in every magazine -- at least one column dedicated to judging in every magazine -- constant encouragement to try the judging program or sign up as a judge -- and a printed listed of who got what award at each meet. The end result is that many people know of the judging program and benefit from it . . .even if they don't participate. They also benefit from "correct" information about their bikes shared in articles, forums, and books.

Imagine if we put in 1/2 that effort, as a club, to building an online forum?

Here's what I mean --- grab an issue of the membership magazine. See where the forum is mentioned, promoted, or linked back to? It is very hard to find.

By comparison, I know about virtual judging, individual websites, marque websites and the AMCA facebook page because those DO get mentioned more than once in the magazine and from issue to issue.

So, part of it is making the forum better known and promoted to AMCA members . . . as well as more content/discussion.

And a big tell tale is how many people have said something like: "my posts aren't as good as . . ." or "I don't want to make a fool of myself . . . " and so on. Until that attitude slackens; people will continue to read instead of post.

[Steve Swan]

BoschZEV, i wholeheartedly agree with you one reality exists and on the other hand, given the nature of our human condition, reality is that which lies within our perceptual grasp. A study of remote history long past not to mention more recent history underscores the fact that many people live and will defend to the death their "incorrect understandings" of what they choose to believe is true.

Agreed, i also believe the AMCA is here to stay because the AMCA serves overall the purpose of promoting antique motorcycles; in fact, all motorcycles 35 years and older. In this light, there is no other organization that i am aware of that does a better job than the AMCA. The AMCA as an organization is one thing. Given the AMCA's all inclusive position, it seems reasonable that the AMCA's electronic mediums are likely more affected than the overall membership numbers of the AMCA. Case in point is the foreign motorcycle section of the forum; with exception to British bikes, the makes from other countries have pretty limited forum activity. There was time, and i well remember it, when only American made bikes were worthy of consideration within the League of AMCA gentlemen; foreign marques, while recognized and not excluded did not enjoy nor were lavished the attention of their American cousins. Subsequently, AMCA leadership recognized in order for membership numbers to at least remain stable and ideally increase, a number of changes were made making the AMCA more inclusive thereby more welcoming to a wider membership base with more diverse interests in any motorcycle 35 years and older.

What i am getting at, within the context of what the forum can do to attract more activity is to continue to be welcoming, especially when a new member introduces themselves, and especially so when existing members have anything to offer in terms of their experiences with a particular motorcycle a new member brings to the forum thereby strengthening the welcome the newly introduced member receives to perhaps becoming an enduring relationship. All things considered that i have mentioned, i believe the the forum is mostly fine the way it is. Forum activity or lack thereof does not reflect AMCA membership numbers. On the other hand, any new ideas, tweaks or improvements to existing topics or features of the forum can be no less than beneficial to promoting and encouraging activity on the forum.

Regardless of the amount of activity on the forum and how it serves me, i do not think i am alone in this thought to say that this forum does and will continue to provide excellent information not found elsewhere on shop and machine practices invaluable to any one who takes the time to share about and learn from the experiences of others. For this reason, i check in at least once daily for the opportunity to benefit from what is shared by fellow members. While my threads are not an exemplar in contrast to some of the fabulous threads of other members, i share what i can on the forum as a show of appreciation and loyalty to the AMCA and fellow forum members.

In closing, A huge shout out to Mike and the work he does for OUR forum.

[BoschZEV]

I realize my comments may be of little help and are my version of reality where so many versions of reality exist.

An important correction to what you wrote is there is only one reality. Although people can have incorrect understandings of what is true and what isn't, that doesn't alter the fact there is only one reality. Ideally, having an understanding of reality will result in making better decisions.

It seems if specific needs are to be met and someone wants more active participation about their particularly specific niche of interest, it only stands to reason that that person will look for a group of like-minded people for whatever marque or model of motorcycle they interested in so they can give and receive the information they are actively interested in rather than hope they get an answer from someone who may or may not actively participate on any given forum.

People find, or found, different sites (e.g. CAIMAG, Yahoo, Photobucket, Facebook, etc.) more or less useful for their own particular purposes, but the issue at hand is the fact the AMCA site has, for example, seven forums for Harley-Davidsons and four for Indians, but only 0.1% of AMCA members are posting here. If the site were useful, people would post here, and if people posted here, the site would be useful.

If it doesn't matter where people post useful information as long as it can be easily found, it doesn't matter if the AMCA site remains with low traffic. However, as the disappearance of CAIMAG, Yahoo, Photobucket and others show, commercial sites depend on commercial considerations to continue to exist (or exist in forms useful for us), whereas an organization like AMCA that has been around for almost 70 years is likely to remain around. That's why it would be in the best interest of many more than 0.1% of AMCA members if useful information were posted on this site instead of ones that have a smaller probability of continuing to exist in the future. But, how to accomplish that is an open question.

[pfindlay]

Steve Swan: Thanks for your many JD restoration posts. They are still "go-to" information for those of us with JDs.

In my opinion, more threads like Steve's would be the sort of thing that would attract and involve more members. But not everyone has the mechanical skills and / or the tech skills to bring it all together like that.

Peter