AMCA Membership fees to increase to $40 in July

[Keith Kizer]

By the way, do the math, 10,000 members at $10 equals the new Director yearly pay.

Rich, I was just making reference to this part of your comment and just want to explain myself and make sure I didn't leave any money on the table for negotiations. I was trying to be humorous but that doesn't always work when typing. We're good!

On the same note I would like to say that during the hiring process, there was a salary range for the ED job. I voluntarily took the lowest possible salary (no where near the $90,000 figure stated.) I felt I was the best candidate for the job and said I do not deserve a penny more until I prove myself an asset to the club. I also took no benefits (health insurance) even though it was offered. Hey, I'm cheap, literally and figuratively.

[RichO]

Keith, Please reread my post. I never said the increase was a problem. I stated that another magazine would cost the same as ours with our dues increase and not give us the additional benefits. We were told your salary was $90k with some benefits so my rough math was close or we were told wrong. I didn't say your not earning it or that your position wasn't needed if I recall. No defense needed. I hope to see you at Rhinebeck this coming Friday. Rich Ostrander #47

[Keith Kizer]

I thought I should chime in on a couple of comments.

Drew - FYI, You started in 1990.

JWI - To date, I have received a single application from anyone who would like to be included in October's board elections. Also, you mentioned $10 x 10,000 members was to pay for the ED. Does that mean they were supposed to pay me $100,000 salary? Maybe I should go back and renegotiate, I'm well short of that figure.

Rich O - On the subject of the ED pay, I can assure you the increase in dues had nothing to do with that. By the AMCA hiring me also greatly reduced fees paid to outside contractors to conduct business. The AMCA long ago surpassed the all volunteer boards ability to keep up with the needs of so many chapters and members. When a club grows to this size it takes full-time help to sustain it or to grow it. I can attest to the fact that I put in no less than 60 hours a week not counting National weekends. With an organization this size there are constant maintenance issues to deal with and fix in addition to constant communication with registration, magazine, website, merchandise, judging staff, contractors, and/or volunteers. Then there is communicating as needed with chapter Presidents, newsletter editors, in a plethora of subjects including National meet needs, insurance, future planning, newsletters, etc.

Back to the dues increase, I would challenge anyone to come up with a national company, club or organization that has not had an increase if fees in a dozen years. As you all know the cost of doing anything has increase on an annual basis, let alone a decade. In my humble opinion the dues increase should have come at the same time the club increased the magazine from four to six issues. The magazine is the main communication device to the membership and one of the primary benefits to membership. Trust me, we are not making money on the magazine. It holds it own, but on paper it is not a profit center for the club. It is a vital necessity but not here for the purpose of lining anyone's pocket.

On the offer to subsidize for those who cannot afford the increase. Great idea and thank you. I'll jump on that bandwagon and pay for 10 people's increase too. With that, maybe we should create a fund just for that purpose. I doubt that many would publicly come on this forum and admit they need the help, but we can all agree, some just do. This could be something we create and have Cornerstone hold the funds and distribute on an as-needed basis with complete confidentiality for those who ask for it.

[shelbyinparadise]

Shelby and BoschZEV,
The AMCA Board relies on local Chapters to choose a venue for an AMCA National Meet. The Chapter Officers and Members know their geographical area better then the AMCA Board. The current Board has never dictated where a Chapter must hold a National Meet and we never will. However, the Board does review all chosen venues but does not substitute its own judgment when it comes to a Chapter's decision on a venue.

Regarding the parking issue at the New Smyrna location, with the increase in popularity of this meet, attendee parking has increased. The Chapter and the Board addressed the problem associated with increased parking needs and space limitations within the venue. The problem was addressed to the extent possible. The Board will continue to offer suggestions to the Sunshine Chapter on all matters related to this venue. But there are no problems with this venue that would require the Board to review its original decision to approve the New Symrna location. If the Sunshine Chapter wanted to relocate, the Officers would simply apply to the Board for a change in venue.

As BoschZEV stated, there will always be problems and disagreement with any venue chosen by a local Chapter. And Shelby you and I know as well as anyone who has ever attended an AMCA National Meet in Florida, when it rains in Florida, no venue is immune from the ravages rain can inflict on any motorcycle swap meet.

Shelby, thanks for the ongoing positive discussion.
Richard

Thanks Richard, Yes it has been a positive discussion, and I am glad to have the forum back as a way to talk about AMCA issues, Positive or Negative in a respectful manner. There will always be the site sharks with snide, crude or just downright playful mayhem, that disrupt the conversation, but so is life. Shelby

[shelbyinparadise]

Thank you for your insightful answer and coments as well as Richards clarification of current events at Silver Sands. Your personalized description of swap meet experiences as a person as well as the descriptions of the venue change problems was refreshing. Although health issues have severely limited my ability to be an active vendor now, I look back on the 45 years I have vended Coast to coast, in the old days to pay for the gas and find parts for customers, with many warm thoughts.

Your acknowledgement of the vendor problems and the eventual healing of the Chapter and Vendors was balanced, both the positive and negative. There is such a fine line when talking about a problem or issue, when discussing a negative it is easy for the casual reader to perceive the writer in the wrong light. Trying to correct a perceived notion in text is difficult at best.

As Richard pointed out a lot of the issues raised were well below the level of National Control after the fact. His statements of trying to help improve the existing problems at least bears out there were problems and is a positive step. I have stated it to Richard and others, I have dedicated my retirement to helping my local chapter be the best it can be, and I am Proud of my work for improving the AMCA for all. Look forward to meeting with you in the future. Shelby

[rwm]

If the sunshine chapter hates silversand location so much, Why do they continue to volunteer their time and effort?

[Spag]

BoschZEV,
You make a good point about conflict of interest. The Board was faced with a similar situation a few years back. It involved approving expenditures for the AMCA Chief Judge (the CJ prior to the current CJ). Because the matter became so contentious with the CJ, who was a Board Member, the Board decided that having the CJ as a Board Member and deciding on his budget was a direct conflict of interest that could not be remedied by just having the CJ recuse himself from the vote. Instead, the Board passed a rule which forbids the CJ from becoming a Board Memebr for these reasons. Now the Board doesn't have to face a similar situation if it would ever arise.
Richard

[Spag]

Phil,
Just like Rich O, you get right to the point but maybe with a few more words. Positive works when communicating with others. Negative does not. A very simple concept. One has to wonder why some have never learned from this simple lesson. Criticism is to be expected when one is in a leadership role. But perpetually angry, venomous and negative rhetoric almost never receives a response from the recipient. Again one has to wonder why the spewer of this negative rhetoric never understands why no one wants to engage him. Thanks for your insight.
Richard

[BoschZEV]

It's an inevitable aspect of a Club like this that members span a continuum from those with an interest in old motorcycles to those who make a significant fraction of their income selling goods and services. For the latter the specifics of a site, and where their booths are located within that site, significantly affects their finances. "Vendors" certainly should have input into the location but, to me at least, it seems equally clear that because of their clear financial conflict of interest that their input needs to be appropriately weighed. A universal standard is that decisions of any kind should be made by people with no direct conflict of interest in the given matter. Yes, examples to the contrary can be cited, but this is the standard by which the behavior of organizations is judged, especially when things get contentious.

There are 10,000+ AMCA members including probably fewer than 500 "major vendors" (by which I mean people who derive a significant fraction of their income from selling at swap meets). Something would be seriously wrong if that 5% of the Club -- important and wanted as they are as members -- had undue influence on Club matters for which they had significant financial interest.

For example, the experience of a major vendor could be quite valuable and that person might be an excellent member of the Board of a local Club. However, whenever decisions that have significant effect on their income are being discussed (e.g. the site for a swap meet), they should declare that they have a conflict (even when "everyone" knows of the conflict), limit their discussion to providing their perspective, and then refrain from any subsequent debate by other Board members, and most certainly recuse themselves from any voting. In circumstances like this it is the norm for the person with the conflict to leave the room while the debate and voting is taking place because their presence alone is undue influence over their fellow Board members who are their friends and colleagues.

[fillibuster]

Dear Shelby:
You have quite a resume, and I applaud your commitment(s). You couldn't have done it all without leadership skills and personal attachment to what you love. No one should doubt your degree of passion for our sport.
We may have experienced a similar (to Eustis) transition with the Viking Chapter when they left Farmington and hosted their meet in the Great Hall (correct?) on the State Fairgrounds in St Paul. Farmington was more spacious than Eustis, and much more accommodating to vendors than St Paul's venue, and you didn't have to drive through a "jungle" (most common complaint) to get there. Vendor participation dropped disastrously (my opinion, and many others"), and many of them have serious "sore spots", and they declare that they'll never come to St Paul. ...... But the chapter has endured in their commitment there, and some vendors have dropped their attitude and returned to their activities in St Paul, and those showing their bikes and those viewing bikes have come and, having dropped their bias, have grown to appreciate the Great Hall (especially when it rains!), and the showers/laundry/biffers (rumor has it they've installed bidet's!) are like the finest I've seen at any meet! As family-friendly as you can get. The hosts' enthusiasm is strong, guests attend in large volume, and it's a showcase any new visitor would appreciate.

Alas, our dear Farmington fades into the past. My very first AMCA meet in 1990 I got absolutely drenched in a cold rain, and I loved it! Did field events, covered all the vendors, always bought what I could, took the grandkids on rides around the pasture, slept on the ground without a tent (or under Bill Rodencal's trailer), bumped elbows with all the Knucklehead Company, covered more vendors with the grandsons, putted around the vendor spots in the sidecar with the kids,... and did I mention that I appreciate vending more than anything else at a swap meet?

But it moved. And guess what? It's still good, and my Viking hosts made the call and they're sticking to it. And I can like it if I LET MYSELF ENJOY it.

So work with what you got. If I ever visit Florida again I'll look for your meet there in Eustis (national or not), or see you at D-port, wherever. If you set up a meet on a 10-acre farmstead with an enchanted forest (poison ivy, itch-weed, ditch-weed, and no two trees without "something" parked between them), I'll bring my A-game. ...... My point is: that you must know, as a leader, that you make more friends and influence more people, and get more results, with POSITIVES, than with NEGATIVES. I doubt that you've won over new members with renegade talk. Just let evolution take care of things negative. Things good will survive despite the detractors, might thrive. Positive stays strong. Negative just gets to be a pain in the drain, especially on vacation. ..... AMCA is a great vacation!

Wish you well in your (positive) endeavors.

[Spag]

Rich O,
You do have a way of getting right to the point! Always did. Thanks for your historical and current perspective on the events which occurred within the AMCA over the years.
Richard

[Spag]

Shelby and BoschZEV,
The AMCA Board relies on local Chapters to choose a venue for an AMCA National Meet. The Chapter Officers and Members know their geographical area better then the AMCA Board. The current Board has never dictated where a Chapter must hold a National Meet and we never will. However, the Board does review all chosen venues but does not substitute its own judgment when it comes to a Chapter's decision on a venue.

Regarding the parking issue at the New Smyrna location, with the increase in popularity of this meet, attendee parking has increased. The Chapter and the Board addressed the problem associated with increased parking needs and space limitations within the venue. The problem was addressed to the extent possible. The Board will continue to offer suggestions to the Sunshine Chapter on all matters related to this venue. But there are no problems with this venue that would require the Board to review its original decision to approve the New Symrna location. If the Sunshine Chapter wanted to relocate, the Officers would simply apply to the Board for a change in venue.

As BoschZEV stated, there will always be problems and disagreement with any venue chosen by a local Chapter. And Shelby you and I know as well as anyone who has ever attended an AMCA National Meet in Florida, when it rains in Florida, no venue is immune from the ravages rain can inflict on any motorcycle swap meet.

Shelby, thanks for the ongoing positive discussion.
Richard

[shelbyinparadise]

Hello Richard, I welcome your well detailed response and clarification on the technical issues, in my example answering the question asked of me

"Shelby, can you expand on what you mean by "input"? Surely members of the Board listen to what people tell them and take it into account in making whatever decisions they make. But, you must mean something different than this(?).

I used the example of Eustis because it was a subject I had direct involvement with you on, providing you with a deferent perspective from the presentation your National Board received from the two Florida Board Members. I spoke with you many times trying to convey that the vendors and members were left totally out of the discussion to move. You acknowledge this and yes there was a meeting called and attended by 17 people a year later. You fail to mention I already had the fairgrounds at Eustis rented for the second year so returning to Eustis was a mute point. You told me you would not approve of a private corporation control an AMCA event. You make it seem that there was no objections at all from other Board Members, which is a false impression, it was a 4 to 4 tie with the chapter judge not being allowed to vote for the first time as a board member.

At this point I was just a concerned member and vendor of 16 years at Eustis, where anyone that knows anything about Swap meets, vendors try for years to get the best possible spots in their opinion, pay in advance to keep or improve their spots, and make it as easy for their customers to find them. Several people (Vendors) at Wauseon, after hearing from two Florida Board members in attendance about the decision who were opposed to the move, all agreed to stay in touch to see what could be done to reverse this decision and reach out to you to reconsider the move. By Oct 1, when the Sunshine Chapters deadline to rent passed we stepped up.

My point here is there was 200 vendors that were not notified till near the end of the year they would not be returning to their spots but the Sunshine Chapter had assigned them new spaces at the new venue in Volusia County. Roughly half the members of the chapter dropped out or became disillusioned with how they were ignored in the process.

It is not a question of can chapter officers make decisions for the chapter, or if following proper protocol the National Board has the power to Approve the move. The question was did the right thing occur for the Club and Chapter? Could it have been handled better by more input from Chapter members. Did the National Board make an exception to the schedule without the best "do diligence" it could have made. Could more information been collected by those at risk of being effected.

If this venue was brought to the Board today, knowing of the lack of parking, size, poor drainage, traffic problems on the immediate vicinity of the Cabbage Patch, non-compliance with the Handicap accessible, and suitability of a dirt floor area for National Judging, loss of support from VJMC and now a two day meet, would you have second thoughts about it meeting the criteria set out in the P&P manual?

Having The experience of vending for 38 straight years in Florida, 4 years of running the Eustis Swap meet, and now working on the Second year of the Cherokee Chapter Concourse De Pate at the Texas Motor Speedway and Chairman of Pate Committee, I feel I understand how important it is to work with people for a better product or service by getting the best possible information and be flexible in decision making process while you can. By being the Membership and Event Director for a very active chapter, I strive to better serve my membership, our Board works well together, voting by emails, and we have a one member one vote policy for the membership.

Thank you for your response it was good to hear from you, with all due respect, Shelby

[Spag]

Shelby,
Maybe I can help clarify what you said happened when the Sunshine Chapter requested National Board approval for a change in venue for its AMCA National Meet. But first let me say that the AMCA Board fully supports every AMCA Chapter that sponsors an AMCA National Meet. When one of these Chapters has a request or needs guidance, we try to help any way we can.
In the case of the Sunshine Chapter, they made a written request to change their National Meet venue from Eustis to New Symrna. The Board invited the Chapter representatives to address the Board in person. They did so, provided documentation and after a thorough discussion, the Board requested additional information before making a decision. The information requested was provided in a timely manner and the Board voted to approve the transfer.
Sometime after Board approval, you raised a number of objections to the decision including one that the Sunshine Chapter Membership never voted on the change. After the first National Meet at the new venue and at the request of the Board, the Sunshine agreed to schedule a Chapter meeting where one of the agenda items was a vote on whether to approve continuing the National Meet at the new location. As a Sunshine Chapter Member you received notice of the meeting and the above mentioned agenda item. The meeting was held. You did not attend. I have been advise that no member attending this meeting made a motion to change the meet venue back to Eustis. But a member did make a motion to continue the meet in New Symrna. I believe that motion was seconded and passed unanimously.
Those are the facts as I understand them. Perhaps there were some Chapter members who didn't want the Chapter to change venues for this meet. But they did not come to the meeting to voice their opposition and vote. If they don't take the time to come and voice their concerns, then they shouldn't continue to complain about the process that led to the change being made. Perhaps you will raise the issue of proxy voting since you live in Texas which is about 1,300 miles from from where the Chapter meeting took place in Florida. But the Sunshine Chapter has never instituted or voted for proxy voting which you will agree is the Chapter memberships' right. I hope that helps clarify the concerns you raised.
Richard

[BoschZEV]

if there were no problems they would not have assigned the Executive Director the task of finding solutions behind the scenes.

If some people complained a National Board that was responsive to its membership might well ask the Executive Director to look into it even if the problems were not severe, just to accommodate the members who complained. Also, the fact the "new" venue has been used for four years implies to me that whatever problems it has are not severe enough that they required immediate change. Again, I don't know this specific situation, but the text you supplied in red doesn't indicate the Board violated its rules. It seems the National Board agreed to a change in venue requested by the elected representatives of the local Chapter. It also is apparent that change did not make everyone happy. But, that's a local chapter issue, not a national one.

You can not read today what was changed years ago, with all due respect.

I'm pretty sure I explained that I do not know the details of the situation and that all that is available for me to get a broader picture is what I can read today. But, apparently, this isn't just a dead horse, it's one that was beaten to death four years ago, so I'm happy to end this digression at this point and let the horse RIP.