H-D blueprint for 1954 Panhead frame changes

[FCJ]

Below is an excerpt from an earlier version of Drawing No. 47004-49A. Note the differences in the table of subassembly parts.

Excerpt:


[END]

[FCJ]

Eric: Palmer states that all 1955-later (SL and WB) frames had a carburetor control tab welded to the support tube. I believe that the tab may have been added to both designs in 1955 and later removed from the WB frame design.

Note that the circled number reference to the support tube was changed from (a) “3” (in the earlier version of Drawing No. 47004-49A that was posted by Darryl) to (b) “2” (in the later version of Drawing No. 47004-49A).

Note that, in each version of the table of subassembly parts, (i) number 2 is assigned to the Steering Head Assembly and (ii) number 3 is assigned to the Upper Stay Assembly (R.H.).

Some people seem to believe that the circled number references are intended to correspond to (only) the item numbers in the table of subassembly parts, but some of those people may not be aware that the drawings generally include one or more tables of change notes (which are commonly omitted from reproductions of the drawings) in addition to one or more tables of subassembly parts.

I believe that the circled number references typically correspond to both the change notes and the subassembly parts.

Typically, when a change was desired, the designer (a) created a new version of the drawing, (b) recreated all the continuing elements from the prior version of the drawing (e.g., tables of change notes and tables of subassembly parts) via tracing or otherwise by hand in earlier times and via photocopy in later times, (c) modified the new version to reflect the change, (d) added a numbered and dated change note to describe the change, and (e) made conforming changes (e.g., to update the table of subassembly parts and all the circled number references), as necessary or appropriate.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Fletcher, it was good talking to you on the phone earlier today. As I mentioned, I think items 7 and 8 have PNs with -52 suffixes not -58. AFAIK the top motor mount brackets were the same for 52 models thru about mid-69 models except for the seat bar bolt hole being increased from 5/16” to 3/8” as of 65 models.

Re the drawing Darryl posted I think the support tube circled number is 2 not 3.

Re the tab for the carb control coil clamp on Pan frames, I agree with Palmer’s 37–64 SE in that it first appeared on 1955 models. BTW, the 37–64 FE (1994) contradicted itself about the tab, at one stage saying it was first used for 54 and then elsewhere saying 55.
Eric

[FCJ]

Thank Eric. Does anyone know if and how we can confirm that the applicable bracket assembly PNs (47071-52 and 47072-52) didn't change during the relevant time period? Would those PNs be listed in any parts catalog or price list or maybe a Special Supplement or possibly only in drawings?

Below are photos of the referenced subassembly part tables and items 7 and 8. The PN suffix looks different to me. To me, it looks like -52 in the first two (2) photos and -58 in the last two (2) photos. But, not certain and may be wrong.

Table 1 (main photo):


Table 1 (zoomed photo):


Table 2 (main photo):


Table 2 (zoomed photo):


[END]

[FCJ]

Photos of two (2) reprints below. I initially thought that there may be a circled 3 reference that changed to a circled 2 reference. Is is possible that the 2s are different 2s?

In other words, (a) is the reference in question the same 2 in both photos (with discrepancies, if any, likely attributable to copy quality) or (b) are they different 2s (e.g., an old 2 and a new and different 2 that was redrawn or recreated in connection with creation of new version of design)?

Note that item 2 in the subassembly parts table is listed as the steering head assembly. Note that there is already another circled number reference which seems to be referring to the steering head assembly. Why have multiple references to the part? Does the "steering head assembly" part include the support tube area? Maybe they felt like they needed multiple references to the part to clarify what was included on or with the steering head assembly?

I'm asking because I had initially assumed that there should be carburetor control tab on the support tube in that area. I wondered if the design had been changed (e.g., to remove the tab from the design or make some other change). I thought that maybe they just forgot to delete the reference in question or failed to make conforming changes in connection with whatever change was made to that area of the design.

Photo 1:


Photo 2:


[END]

[FCJ]

Re the tab for the carb control coil clamp on Pan frames, I agree with Palmer’s 37–64 SE in that it first appeared on 1955 models. BTW, the 37–64 FE (1994) contradicted itself about the tab, at one stage saying it was first used for 54 and then elsewhere saying 55. Eric

If Palmer is correct about the tab (on all SL and WB frames for 55-later), does that mean the drawing is incorrect?

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience with me. Have enjoyed your posts for a long time. It was nice to finally talk to you. A lot of conflicting threads and bad info floating around. Very much appreciate you taking the time to explain your statements and provide details and back them up with support. Helpful to me and others like me that are trying to learn. Difficult to know who and what to believe.

[Speeding Big Twin]

The only dates I know of on the drawing are 8-22-51 and 1-5-53 so I think the drawing is correct to have no tab.

I still think the top motor mounts have PNs with a -52 suffix (not -58) although I can’t confirm it via a parts catalog. The only Special Supplement I found in my books was for some pieces of rigid frames, springers and sidecar frames mostly for the 1930s and ending with 1940.

Some info on some drawings is unclear. For example, in this table the item number following 26 doesn’t look like 27 but numerical order says it is.
Eric

[FCJ]

Eric: Please disregard my prior comments. Based on the material and information you shared with me, I see that I was likely mistaken about the various references. Thanks again.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I'm still looking for H-D drawing #47000-40A. All leads appreciated.
Eric

[Chris Haynes]

As far as I know it is not a drawing. Simply a list of changes with dates. Or "really a cross reference").

[Speeding Big Twin]

As far as I know it is not a drawing. Simply a list of changes with dates. Or "really a cross reference").

We know 47000-40A is a frame PN. It’s in H-D catalogs and Bruce acknowledged it in the SE. But what else is it? The SE mentions a detail frame assembly and fittings drawing with the same number but then says this ‘drawing’ is really a cross-reference to drawing 47003-49A. However, later in the book there is another reference to 47000-40A as a drawing: ‘Per the factory drawing 47000-40A …’

Number 47000-40A has been mentioned many times but the only way to resolve the matter is for the drawing/blueprint/list of changes/cross-reference to be posted. Please ask Bruce to post it so everyone can see exactly what it is and exactly what it says. Thank you.
Eric

[Peter Cooke]

Hi Eric, years ago I worked in a drawing office and anything that was produced (drawing, list, cross reference, hand sketch, etc) and given a number within the system was thereafter referred to as a 'drawing'. It's a generic term used as a catch all for the products produced in the drawing office. So what you're chasing could very well be a 'cross reference' as opposed to an actual 'drawing'.

Hope this helps
Peter

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks Peter. That’s consistent with some of the info in the 37–64 SE. At least we know the number 47000-40A is correct even though it’s applied to more than one item. If this cross-reference was posted it would be a big help to 54 owners and AMCA judges because it would end the confusion and/or speculation that often appears when frames for 54s are discussed. And I know everyone else would appreciate seeing it as well.
Eric

[Chris Haynes]

I haven't seen any judges looking for that "Useful" information. In fact the only person I have ever seen ask for it is you.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I haven't seen any judges looking for that "Useful" information. In fact the only person I have ever seen ask for it is you.

Even IF I was the only person who would like to see drawing/cross-reference 47000-40A, what would be wrong with that? But I’m not the only person who would like to see it. What about owners of 54s, some of whom I’ve been trying to help for years. I know they’d like to see it and so would a lot of other people.

Motorcycles judged as original must have original engines and frames. Wrong frame incurs a deduction. Drawing 47000-40A has factory info regarding 54 frames and therefore it would be beneficial to judges (and owners).
Eric