Two stroke oil

[tgarcia]

I have a 101 scout im putting the original oil pump on and was sitting up late one night wondering if two stroke oil would be a good replacement for the sae50 used normally. The oil has good lubrication qualities and is designed to be burned. Just a random thought and was curious on you guys thoughts.

[PaulCDF]

I don't know but, personally I would not risk my engine. Oil is cheap. Engine rebuild expensive. "Any oil is better than no oil" but unless dire straits I would not.

[T. Cotten]

Oil threads bring out the worst in folks, TG,...

Total-loss past-the-rings flattys enjoy an ashless oil, like 'Aeroshell', but a few capfulls of 2-stroke shouldn't hurt much.

(I can bring cases of it to Davenport if anybody needs some, reduced for 'soiled packaging'.)

....Cotten

[tfburke3]

I mix 2 stroke oil about 75/1 on a fresh upper end,no smoke,starts and runs same.Its not a motor oil.
Tom

[tgarcia]

You are correct cotten but that is how we learn things through rational normal discussion and if a person cant do that I pretty much ignore their opinion anyway

[T. Cotten]

By 'worst', TG,..

I meant I was going to try to sell some!.

Now that I see what it goes for today, I'll push it with a personal experience anecdote, from the Eighties..

My Pan wasn't designed to be total loss, but it got that way. It was getting lousy oil mileage, but I left for Indiana anyway.

Getting perhaps sixty miles per quart on Valvoline, I found Aeroshell at an Interstate gas stop, and bought some for security. For three quarts I got about eighty miles each. On the way home with regular oil, it was back to sixty.

That's my narrative, and I'm sticking to it.

....Cotten

[bernhardt]

Oil and tires are personal choices, and everybody has an opinion. Here's mine. The benefit of 2 stroke oil is that it burns clean, with very little ash, and virtually no carbon buildup. It lubricates as good or better than regular oil. It can be used on a total loss motor with good results. BUT ONLY If your oil pump is adjusted for the correct amount of flow, so that it burns off, and does not accumulate beyond a set amount. In the 101 that would be the volume under the top level plug. Also, you should dump the old crankcase oil out at every gas stop, or at least the end of the day.

I would not use it on a recirculating oil system, because it loads up fast with carbon and gets thick. I think if you ran it in a panhead or knucklehead, you would destroy the motor, even with a filter, because 2 stroke is designed to be continuously burning off, and replenished with new. It would probably become like tar if it was trapped in the motor.

I recently rode 3000 plus miles on a 1920 big X, and my 2 friends that rode with on the same kind of machine used Castrol 2 stroke the whole way without any problems. I would have run it also, but we didn't have enough to go around. At the gas station, we all added an ounce of 2 stroke per gallon of gas for the top end. We also drained the old crankcase oil and replenished it with fresh oil. One of our guys has used 2 stroke on several cannonballs, in total loss motorcycles. His post run teardowns revealed cylinders as clean as a whistle, with very little wear. Perhaps Gene will chime in and report his oil milage.

[PaulCDF]

I stand corrected, (Not familiar with total loss engines) Thanks for the lesson fellas.

[tgarcia]

Some good insight here guys thanks for the input

[gharper]

It does seem absolutely counter-intuitive but I can say with certainty that using a good full synthetic 2 stroke oil straight in the crankcase of a total loss motor works fine, IF everything is right in the motor and you keep enough oil in the engine at all times.

I can confirm this personally after our ride last September. I've now put almost 4000 miles on my 24 Excelsior using the full synthetic Castrol 2 stroke oil in the crankcase. In addition, I add 1 oz/ gallon into the fuel. Keep in mind, we all dumped the crankcase oil and reset the level every 75 or so miles, when we gassed up. This amounted to 2-3 oz per stop, so not much really. There are two reasons for changing oil so often: First, it is for peace of mind. By changing the oil so often you can be sure the oiling system is set up correctly and nothing has changed. It is of course critical to have enough oil and catastrophic if you don't. Conversely, too much oil can be problematic as well, as in that case it starts blowing oil out every possible place as well as forcing it past the rings and burning it. past that, excess oil will cause the entire engine to immediately overheat and bog down, even stalling the motor. So, secondly to prevent excess oil buildup in the crankcase. The original engines did not have oil control rings, so they burned oil and the oil pump was adjusted to replace that amount as you rode. Installing oil control rings, which is a good thing, reduces oil consumption to a minimum. It can be difficult in some motors to get the oil pump turned down low enough to maintain the level, and not "make" oil in the case.

Our friend Hans Coertse from So. Africa rode with as and has also completed 3 cannonball rides, twice using this oil as well as many thousands of miles on other vintage runs in So. Africa over the years. Hans is the one who suggested I do this. He is the consummate engineer and looked at it this way: Regardless of how well the engine is built, even with good fitting pistons and oil control rings (or Nikasil cylinder linings like I ran) the total loss engine will burn some oil. Conventional oil burns and leaves carbon deposits, which can accumulate on valve stems, pistons, cylinder heads etc. These carbon deposits can build up quite thick and cause overheating or pre-detonation as well as break off and damage the inside of the motor. This is why owners manuals back in the day said to remove the cylinder (or cylinder head) and "de-carbon the pistons and combustion chamber every season". This is a pain in the butt for sure! So, Hans reasoned that why not use full synthetic oil that is designed to burn CLEAN, leaving only ash that will blow away? If that oil diluted 50/1 with gasoline will work in a 10,000 rpm 2 stroke motor why will it not work in these old, relatively slow turning motors? His experience has proven that it does, and the combustion chamber remains very clean and free of carbon n his bikes.

For me, I've ridden my 24 Big Chief sidecar rig for 30+ years on conventional oil. It does burn a bit of oil, especially if the oil level gets a bit too high, which can be tricky to regulate on any total loss motor. Over the years, I've put a good hard 15,000 miles on this rig, with sidecar and been into the top end 3 times, First time was after 25 years and it was caked with carbon, bores and pistons scored from carbon and exhaust valve stems caked as well. I tried the 2 stroke oil before the 2018 Cannonball but was afraid to do it, so I went back to conventional oil. In addition, the timing chest was a bit loose and the thin synthetic oil made it noisier. There are signs of carbon build up in the cylinders at this point, but not terrible yet, after 6500 miles since the last rebuild. The timing chest has been tightened up considerably and I will probably make the change to full synthetic oil in this bike as well. In comparison, the 24 X is whistle clean in the combustion chamber, as viewed using a scope. The engine still sounds as quiet as ever, so no signs of undue wear at this point.

So, I'm sold on using it in a total loss motor and will continue doing so. The only problem now is the tree huggers have put the squeeze on things and Castrol no longer sells this oil in the US. There are other full synthetic 2 stroke oils available though, just haven't tested them out yet.

[tgarcia]

Gharper thanks for that rundown it was very informative and the real world experience I was looking for, I was on the same page as your friend hans coertse as far as protection and burn properties. I am curious on the back and forth of oil control rings because two strokes don't run them and the original pistons in these engines didn't either but they are good for keeping oil burning down but I thought that is what is supposed to happen to keep the bottom end in check as far as our level...just another question I guess.

[gharper]

I suppose running with no oil control rings would be OK to, just use more oil!

[Steve Swan]

i'll join in this conversation. i have 1,500 miles on my '27 JD and have been running 1 oz of synthetic 2-cycle pre-mix per Gallon of gasoline in my '27 JD rider. Running a synthetic pre-mix makes sense for all the reasons Gene mentions. i suggest running pre-mix because it is designed to mix with the gasoline whereas 2-cycle injector oil is not designed to mix with gasoline. i also run 3 piece expander oil control rings in both front and rear pistons. and had the rotating gear containing the 2 little spring loaded pins rebuilt anew, so that the output of the mechanical oiler can be accurately adjusted.