Experimental 1953 Warrior TT Spring Frame Section

[JTR249]

filedata/fetch?id=299730&d=1653442938&type=thumb Ben walker of Bonhams just emailed and said he cannot find anyone who knew about these. He could not provide an estimate of their value because no one can be found who has knowledge of this specific part. Being an experimental part might narrow the knowledge pool, though the only group who would or could have known have already been consulted and even they had never heard of them.
Mr. Walker suggested contacting other members about this issue to see if anyone has any information.
I have already posted some of this in another thread, though thought some of the older members may have some information to share, even if it is only that you knew of their existence once.

Thanks.
-JR

[JTR249]

Here's the blueprint information.
-JR

[JTR249]

The second frame.
-JR 1953 TT Experimental Rear Frame Section 1417003.jpg

[JTR249]

The second frame also has welds or metal added for an unknown reason. Obviously not from the factory, though someone tried to correct the damage at some point in its past use.
The previous owner of the unrestored frame did not know where the bike came from. The frame had incorrect forks (Arrow/Scout) and a 1951 Warrior TT center section attached.
I hope to have some information soon as now Mecum is involved as well as The National Motorcycle Museum.
-JR

[bikerdds]

Check with Pete Sink. He is an experimental Warrior expert.

[JTR249]

I think Pete and I already discussed the possibility and I don't think he had ever heard of these.
I'll check with him again.
-JR

[JTR249]

Mecum could not find anyone to place a number on them. Definitely not priceless in their opinion.
Still six or so sources to go.
-JR

[JTR249]

Mr. Sink has confirmed the frame as experimental, placing it with some of the other prototype and experimental parts and motorcycles of the 1952 last batch of machines Indian was working on.
The blueprint also confirms the frames as authentic, though these are not part numbers as originally thought. These are casting numbers, according to Robin Markey. However, this does not deter from identification or valuation as the crucial numbers are on the frames and in the blueprints. We are still documenting differences and similarities, consulting other people.
There were numerous lists of experimental center frame sections and motor numbers in the recent past, for example, those posted at Starklite.com which are helpful to those who have odd serial numbers they have never seen. Though the casting numbers are items most likely which exist in other company literature which may be lost to time. We may never know.
Valuing them seems to be largely determined by what the collector would be willing to pay. We'll see.
-JR

[tfburke3]

To me the most interesting or baffling thing revealed with the 1/53 drawing is that they were working on a model that ceased production 3 years earlier because of poor sales etc
Maybe they also had plans for a new power plant or other changes to resurrect the verticals.
Tom

[JTR249]

Tom,
Yes, it is worth thinking over. However, the TT was actually a model produced the longest at three years; 1950-1952. They made less of them, though. More Scouts and Arrows in '49.
when you look into the production numbers, you get a lot of mixed results. I don't know why this is the case. If you compare the books; Sucher & Hatfield with the Starklite article and then the wordpress.com article Jim Preussner posted, then wildriders.org, however, there doesn't seem to be much agreement. I don't know what the authors used as a source for the numbers, either.
There are other blueprints you might find interesting at wordpress,com/indian verticals. Search that and you find a couple of lists of blueprints, articles and manuals--most free to download and study. There are vertical drawings there of a motor, though I think Jim Sutter only posted the one of the Scout. There are other blueprints of the earlier Warrior TT gas tank and exhaust system. There's a lot of interesting material.
-JR

[JTR249]

Today after taking more measurements of all spring frame sections for comparison, I took a few more photos of the bare metal frame of one of the 53 experimentals. There is a number 4 between the extra set of numbers on this one.
-JR 1953 Experimental Warrior TT Frame Extra Number 4 found between extra casting number..JPG1953 Experimental Warrior TT Frame Extra Number 4 found between extra casting number..JPG

[JTR249]

Front and Rear 1953 frames.jpg Here is the photo of the original factory blueprint for center and spring frame sections.
If you enlarge the lower, right corner information, it matches the enlarged placard posted by Sutter in the wordpress.com list.
-JR

[JTR249]

Thank you to Mr. Sink for his verification recently.

“They were called 1952's. The drawing you have of a rear section should be adequate proof that they are 1952 EXP's. There are five photos of what was in the Experimental Department. Every bike was different. This bike was never sold to the public. I know of three (3) today and they all have rear frames. There were two (2) rear frame sections."

With this in mind, the logical conclusion at this point would seem to be that Indian planned on continuing Warrior TT production since these blueprints state the designs and numbers matching are for a 1953 Warrior TT model. Measurement comparisons show that the Experimental frames are different at the spindle bracket horizontal and vertical areas. This possibly indicates Indian was redeveloping the suspension system of the TT. Remember when Bubek discussed how he re-designed his model, Old Blue, he added a swing-arm and Girling shocks. the addition of metal spacers at the top of the suspension most likely was not enough to compensate for whatever problems riders encountered at the time.

-JR