Camel Back

[mcarver]

[QUOTE=Phil Mast;115261]It seems/looks as if the cam lobe would have to "pull" the hacksaw linkage down to open the intake valve. I found this pretty odd, presumed better stuff from Hedstrom, and I think there were better varieties around to copy.
Grizz, check the subject index from '08 (I think), one of those issues has a race engine on the cover, and discussion inside. It'll get you juiced.[/QUOTE

The intake valve was "connected" to the exhaust valve by the "hacksaw" and both were actuated in tandem by the same cam lobe. Doesn't allow for hotrodding by valve duration / overlap. As primitive as it is, it was probably an improvement over atmospheric intake.

[c.o.]

It's good to see you back on the forum Mike. A little extra "early" talk is nice to hear.

Welcome aboard Grizz!!

That was some interesting "Hedstrom" history Mr.Spot. Thanks for sharing it.

[mcarver]

Thanks Cory, I am getting motivated about early stuff again after taking a break. Here are some pics I just took of my engine #H701. I pulled the cam cover off and you can see the two lobe cam as well as the 701 stamp on the cam chest cover... indicating this engine left the factory as a fully mechanical intake engine, not a hacksaw type that someone put later parts on after it left the factory. On the magneto mount you can make out the stamps indicating December 1908 and from the serial number list I have seen (Harry Sucher I believe) H702 is the last recorded single for 1908. That would make this engine the second to last 1908. The intake tower on this engine has three tabs as you can see in the pics. The magneto I found quite a long time ago is the correct DA2 Bosch, but it is fixed timing, no advance / retard lever and there never was.... I don't know what the mag come off, I bought it at a tractor swap meet about 12 years ago. I do have the intake valve / housing but it's pretty beat up and mashed out of round on the intake manifold threaded area. I also found a carb but it is for a twin but it is in really good shape. I still need the correct single carb, intake tube, a better intake valve housing, compensating sprocket oil tank and some handlebars and seat post.

[fillibuster]

[QUOTE=mcarver;115294]

It seems/looks as if the cam lobe would have to "pull" the hacksaw linkage down to open the intake valve. I found this pretty odd, presumed better stuff from Hedstrom, and I think there were better varieties around to copy.
Grizz, check the subject index from '08 (I think), one of those issues has a race engine on the cover, and discussion inside. It'll get you juiced.[/QUOTE

The intake valve was "connected" to the exhaust valve by the "hacksaw" and both were actuated in tandem by the same cam lobe. Doesn't allow for hotrodding by valve duration / overlap. As primitive as it is, it was probably an improvement over atmospheric intake.

"in tandem"? Wouldn't the action have to be sequential, ex first, then intake? Seems it would need another follower to actuate the intake. Would that have been intended to use only 1 cam in the interest of limiting expense? or that adding another follower (if that's true) was the simplest and quickest way to manually activate the intake?

[mcarver]

[QUOTE=Phil Mast;115319]

"in tandem"? Wouldn't the action have to be sequential, ex first, then intake? Seems it would need another follower to actuate the intake. Would that have been intended to use only 1 cam in the interest of limiting expense? or that adding another follower (if that's true) was the simplest and quickest way to manually activate the intake?

The concept of opening and closing the valves independently was not commonly in use at least on single cylinder motorcycles prior to 1909 as far as I am aware. Apparently it was not an issue of cost but rather the common technology in IOE (inlet over exhaust) or F head started off with only one valve, the exhaust mechanically operated by the single cam lobe. In atmospheric valve operation the lower pressure in the cylinder created when the piston moves down in the stroke causes the intake valve, which is held closed with a relatively weak valve spring to open enough to allow the charge to enter the cylinder. Obviously no way to do much with cam profile or timing for increased performance with atmospheric intake. The hacksaw setup literally tied the two valves together to mechanically open and close both valves which would be an improvement over the atmospheric or "suck" valve intake, but still primitive. I don't own now nor have I ever owned a hacksaw setup, maybe there was some way to "adjust" the timing of the valves so that they did not open and close at the same time. Lonnie? Any input on this? What you have to remember is that some of the common use practices of the era seem totally backwards and contrary to logic to us now and I would imagine that many engineers of the day were not satisfied with the technology which would account for the multitude of ideas, rapid change and continuous innovation of the era.

[Grizz]

Mike my # h-217 most likely is early 08, since the #'s start at H-100 and yours looks to be 2nd to last produced. I'm thinking that the hacksaw design proved unreliable and some time during the production year the double cam was introduced. I believe yours is correct. I think that Dick Ollhoff has reproduction parts for every item on the bike except the 08 carb. He told me that he even built a twin hacksaw motor! I have been searching for the intake tower and I sent Dick a drawing of the 3 dog latch on the head. He told me it's the same as the twin cyl. tower and is shipping me the parts to try. I sure would like to find the rest of the bike, but Dick said he can furnish all of it. Altho repop, he claims you can't tell the difference. Thanks for the welcome from everyone! .... Phil

[Grizz]

[QUOTE=Phil Mast;115319]

"in tandem"? Wouldn't the action have to be sequential, ex first, then intake? Seems it would need another follower to actuate the intake. Would that have been intended to use only 1 cam in the interest of limiting expense? or that adding another follower (if that's true) was the simplest and quickest way to manually activate the intake?

I know my cam is somewhat kidney bean shaped and I am missing all internal parts of the cam chest. I think there was special linkage that operated the hacksaw.

[c.o.]

Maybe talbot-2 has some incite on the "hacksaw" mechanism? http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...This-is-a-test..........

[Grizz]

It seems/looks as if the cam lobe would have to "pull" the hacksaw linkage down to open the intake valve. I found this pretty odd, presumed better stuff from Hedstrom, and I think there were better varieties around to copy.
Grizz, check the subject index from '08 (I think), one of those issues has a race engine on the cover, and discussion inside. It'll get you juiced.

Are you referring to the magazine? I searched around the site but could not find anything.... Thanks Phil

[Grizz]

[QUOTE=mcarver;115294]

It seems/looks as if the cam lobe would have to "pull" the hacksaw linkage down to open the intake valve. I found this pretty odd, presumed better stuff from Hedstrom, and I think there were better varieties around to copy.
Grizz, check the subject index from '08 (I think), one of those issues has a race engine on the cover, and discussion inside. It'll get you juiced.[/QUOTE

The intake valve was "connected" to the exhaust valve by the "hacksaw" and both were actuated in tandem by the same cam lobe. Doesn't allow for hotrodding by valve duration / overlap. As primitive as it is, it was probably an improvement over atmospheric intake.

Yes likely improved low speed intake flutter, but seems would not like higher rpms... Phil

[talbot-2]

Maybe talbot-2 has some incite on the "hacksaw" mechanism? http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...This-is-a-test..........

C.O. and others,

Attached are a couple of photos of my 1908 Indian, single, battery ignition, motor number 10XXX. The motor has the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve attached as I purchased the cycle from the original owner in 1967. I had it running back then but it was not ever satifactory. Dick Ollhoff got it running last year and it runs very well now.

The "mechanical" intake valve is mentioned in the "Advance Catalog" for 1908 as being an option for both singles and twins for the 1908 line. It at also notes that "The valve, being operated mechanically always opens the same distance and at the proper time, there being no suction to be depended upon nor any varying springs to alter the proportion of the charge. This feature can readily be applied to all previous Indian models and at a slight cost."

In the regular catalog of the line of 1908 Indians, they note that the "Mechanical" valves, as used for 1908, are perfect in action and will be standard equipment". The catalog continues to explain the merits of the new improvement for their 1908 line. However, it also notes that "We will furnish as an option the automatic or suction valve".

The "Diamond" frame that had been their standard since the beginning was to continue into the 1909 line of Indian motorcycles. There were two (2) "diamond" frame models offered for sale in the 1909 catalog and five (5) models offered with the new "loop" frame. Obviously, 1909 was a transition year to the "loop" frame.

The 1908 and 1909 Indian sales catalogs are in the AMCA online library for reference. The 1908 "Advance" catalog is not. I received an original with the 1967 cycle purchase.

See page 39 of the AMCA Fall magazine article on the June, 2011, Rhinebeck Meet for another photo and a short article about of my Indian.

Still looking for a pair of 28" X 2 1/2" tires to replace the ones mounted on it now. The Coker tires are too wide and rub the front fork and really weren't manufactured for double clincher rims.

Grizz....If you need any additional photos, let me know.


IMG_2328-1.jpg Rhinebeck3.jpg


Thanks C.O............Good memory!

[c.o.]

talbot-2!!! That bike of yours peaked my interest the first time I saw a picture of it. I have a knack for remembering a "true" survivor! It's good to hear it's running well again.

[Grizz]

C.O. and others,

Attached are a couple of photos of my 1908 Indian, single, battery ignition, motor number 10XXX. The motor has the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve attached as I purchased the cycle from the original owner in 1967. I had it running back then but it was not ever satifactory. Dick Ollhoff got it running last year and it runs very well now.

The "mechanical" intake valve is mentioned in the Advance Catalog" for 1908 as being an option for both singles and twins for the 1908 line. It at also notes that "The valve, being operated mechanically always opens the same distance and at the proper time, there being no suction to be depended upon nor any varying springs to alter the proportion of the charge. This feature can readily be applied to all previous Indian models and at a slight cost."

In the regular catalog of the line of 1908 Indians, they note that the "Mechanical" valves, as used for 1908, are perfect in action and will be standard equipment". The catalog continues to explain the merits of the new improvement for their 1908 line. However, it also notes that "We will furnish as an option the automatic or suction valve".

The "Diamond" frame that had been their standard since the beginning was to continue into the 1909 line of Indian motorcycles. There were two (2) "diamond" frame models offered for sale in the 1909 catalog and five (5) models offered with the new "loop" frame. Obviously, 1909 was a transition year to the "loop" frame.

The 1908 and 1909 Indian sales catalogs are in the AMCA online library for reference. The 1908 "Advance" catalog is not. I received an original with the 1967 cycle purchase.

See page 39 of the AMCA Fall magazine article on the June, 2011, Rhinebeck Meet for another photo and a short article about of my Indian.

Still looking for a pair of 28" X 2 1/2" tires to replace the ones mounted on it now. The Coker tires are too wide and rub the front fork and really weren't manufactured for double clincher rims.

Grizz....If you need any additional photos, let me know.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]7599[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7600[/ATTACH]


Thanks C.O............Good memory!

Man what a sweet survivor! You are quite fortunate to be the custodian of a great piece of history. Thanks for the photo's.... Phil

[talbot-2]

C.O. and others,

Attached are a couple of photos of my 1908 Indian, single, battery ignition, motor number 10XXX. The motor has the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve attached as I purchased the cycle from the original owner in 1967. I had it running back then but it was not ever satifactory. Dick Ollhoff got it running last year and it runs very well now.

The "mechanical" intake valve is mentioned in the "Advance Catalog" for 1908 as being an option for both singles and twins for the 1908 line. It at also notes that "The valve, being operated mechanically always opens the same distance and at the proper time, there being no suction to be depended upon nor any varying springs to alter the proportion of the charge. This feature can readily be applied to all previous Indian models and at a slight cost."

In the regular catalog of the line of 1908 Indians, they note that the "Mechanical" valves, as used for 1908, are perfect in action and will be standard equipment". The catalog continues to explain the merits of the new improvement for their 1908 line. However, it also notes that "We will furnish as an option the automatic or suction valve".

The "Diamond" frame that had been their standard since the beginning was to continue into the 1909 line of Indian motorcycles. There were two (2) "diamond" frame models offered for sale in the 1909 catalog and five (5) models offered with the new "loop" frame. Obviously, 1909 was a transition year to the "loop" frame.

The 1908 and 1909 Indian sales catalogs are in the AMCA online library for reference. The 1908 "Advance" catalog is not. I received an original with the 1967 cycle purchase.

See page 39 of the AMCA Fall magazine article on the June, 2011, Rhinebeck Meet for another photo and a short article about of my Indian.

Still looking for a pair of 28" X 2 1/2" tires to replace the ones mounted on it now. The Coker tires are too wide and rub the front fork and really weren't manufactured for double clincher rims.

Grizz....If you need any additional photos, let me know.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]7599[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7600[/ATTACH]


Thanks C.O............Good memory!

I failed to mention that the "The Story of the 1907 Indian" sales catalog does not mention anything about a "mechanical" intake valve apparatus. However, the catalog does talk about the "atmospheric" intake valve and has an exploded view of the entire intake valve system on page 9 of the catalog. A 1907 "Advance" sales catalog is available on the online AMCA library but is incomplete and is not much help in research as a result.

To summarize, Indian began using the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve in 1908 through 1909 on their "Diamond" frame models and made it available for retrofitting on earlier models.

[mcarver]

To summarize, Indian began using the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve in 1908 through 1909 on their "Diamond" frame models and made it available for retrofitting on earlier models.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Talbot-2, good documentation on the hacksaw intake but does anyone have any documentation regarding the "pushrod" mechanical intake utilizing a two lobe cam? I believe all or nearly all 1909 models I have seen had pushrod intake and my engine #H701 (apparently second to last documented 1908 single) has pushrod intake as well. Wondering if it was even documented in 1908. Does anyone know of any other high number 1908 singles or twins?