Three Speed for 1914 Hedstrom Indian

[Glr101s]

All;

I am building a 1914 Indian Twin from a basket that came with a three speed. Before I go and fabricate clutch and brake linkage, thought I'd check with the list and see if anyone has done this and is willing to share their approach. Thanks in advance for any help.

Gordon

[Shaky Jake]

Gordon,

If you don't want to fabricate all of the parts yourself, there are a couple of good parts suppliers. I have a 1916 Powerplus that was missing all of the brake and clutch parts. I've gotten a lot of parts from Ziggy Kapuscinski ((519)650-1339 ziggy_kapuscinski@Hotmail.com) and Walker Machine (http://walkermachine.com/). I would suggest emailing both of them and describe what you're doing, so they can let you know what parts they can help you with. They both sell at Davenport too.

Kevin

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[Glr101s]

Kevin;

Thanks for your reply. You are correct, Randy Walker and Ziggy are great suppliers and very helpful. On my project, Ziggy actually came to my shop to develop a list of the many parts that were missing! I picked up a large pile at Davenport from Ziggy, so I am on my way.

The area I am looking for help is the clutch and brake adaptation for adding a three speed on a 1914 Hedstrom. The three speed was not offered in 1914 and the engine does not have the cast in bushing used in 1915 to support the clutch pivot. So. a non-factory design is required (aka cobble job!). Hopefully, someone who has already done this conversion will share their experience.

Gordon

[Tom Lovejoy]

Hi Gordon, I am doing the same as you. I have a 14 with later 3 speed. But mine as been on the back burner for quite a spell. Not sure I can tell you what is needed, I have not looked at it in a while. Johhny Eagles has a 13 set up that way, he can advise you. He might even have the parts made up ? Or the next time I am over there I well ask and take some photo's for us both. I took photo's of the custom parts to adapt it once - darn if I can't find them now. I still have to do mine also, just busy with too many other projects. I can give you Johnny's number if needed Good luck with yours. John's 13 is in many books about Indians, you can check it out.

[Shaky Jake]

Kevin;

Thanks for your reply. You are correct, Randy Walker and Ziggy are great suppliers and very helpful. On my project, Ziggy actually came to my shop to develop a list of the many parts that were missing! I picked up a large pile at Davenport from Ziggy, so I am on my way.

The area I am looking for help is the clutch and brake adaptation for adding a three speed on a 1914 Hedstrom. The three speed was not offered in 1914 and the engine does not have the cast in bushing used in 1915 to support the clutch pivot. So. a non-factory design is required (aka cobble job!). Hopefully, someone who has already done this conversion will share their experience.

Gordon

Ah - now I see.

It sounds like an interesting project.

Kevin

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[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
I rode a 14 Indian with a 3 speed for about 25 years on the pre-16 tours and around town. The setup is simple if you start off with a ’14 2speed motor and chassis. I use a 1915 transmission (both early and late ’15), a 1916 up clutch (they have the adjusting bolt lock plate), and a 1915 and up kick starter setup.
The brakes:
The brakes pedal on a ’14 mounts on a stud off the bottom of rear motor mounting plates. The right motor mounting plate has a larger hole in the bottom hole and the left plate is a smaller home in it. The motor cases will also have a matching larger and smaller holes. The brake pedal stud will also have a stepped shaft through the motor. So nothing special is needed on the pedal setup. The rear brake used is just a stock ’14 up multiple speed rear brake setup, again nothing special.
The clutch pedal:
The clutch pivot is off the center bottom bolt hole on the Hedstrom. The hole on the left side is bigger than the hole on the right side of the cases. The clutch pivot stud is stepped as it goes through the cases. The rear motor mount plates have to be “two speed” motor mounting plates. They have a hole in the middle of them with a bushing pressed in the hole. Linkage from the clutch arm goes to a lever on a cross shaft through the motor mount plates and a lever on the other side. A special bent linkage with be need to connect the pivot lever with the clutch lever on the transmission. The ’15 clutch is also OK to run, I just liked the adjusting bolt locking plate setup.
The kick starter:
If you run the front kick starter there is not issues. That is if you have the correct left motor case, correct front motor mount plates and all the correct front kick starter parts. I recommend not running this setup.
If you are going to run a ’15 up kick starter, then the biggest issue will be finding the correct ‘15 kick starter arm mounting bracket (one year only), as the PP are different. You may want to try both the early and late kick starter arms and center clutch gear, as they have to different ratios and depending on your overall setup, will make it easier or harder to start your Hedstrom.
Transmission:
If you are using a PP transmission, you will have issues with the rear motor mounting plates. The main drawback with the ’15 transmission are finding good gears. While a PP transmission can be setup with Chief gears and a 741 output gear (I think). If you do run a PP transmission, I recommend not running a ’16 transmission because of ball bearing thrust setups they have in the main shaft (I have seen them fall out and go thru the gears).
Hope this will help you a little.
Spacke2speed

[Glr101s]

Spacke2speed

WOW! What a great reply!! Thank you very much.

I think you have put me on the right track, but I still have a long way to go. I have the rear figured out thanks to Ziggy who provided hub, sprocket and brake. I may have the wrong (for this conversion) motor mounting plates, but everything looks so small in diameter to take the pedal loads. Guess the rider has to be most gentle!!

I have fourbmotor mounting plates, but no studs, shafts or bushings. I also have repop clutch pedal and brake pedal not sure what year or trans they go with.

Next step is to make a list and head for Davenport!

Thanks again.

Gordon

[Glr101s]

Hi Gordon, I am doing the same as you. I have a 14 with later 3 speed. But mine as been on the back burner for quite a spell. Not sure I can tell you what is needed, I have not looked at it in a while. Johhny Eagles has a 13 set up that way, he can advise you. He might even have the parts made up ? Or the next time I am over there I well ask and take some photo's for us both. I took photo's of the custom parts to adapt it once - darn if I can't find them now. I still have to do mine also, just busy with too many other projects. I can give you Johnny's number if needed Good luck with yours. John's 13 is in many books about Indians, you can check it out.

Tom;

Thanks for the reply. Glad to know someone else is in the same boat as me! Where are you located? I am in the Detoit area and will be glad to share anything i learn, or make extra parts as I go along.

Also, I'd like to take you up on your offer to provide Johnnt Eagle's contact info. My email is glr101s@aol.com.

Thanks again for your reply.

Gordon

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
I wish I could help by sending you picture and drawings, a while back I sold my ’14 Indian as well as my spare parts. I now ride a 1913 Minneapolis Model S2 (2 speed transmission is built into the motor). I also need to get some of my other early stuff up and running also.
You are correct on the pedal shaft going thru the motor mount plates being a little small in diameter. The brake pedal shaft being small diameter is normal not a problem. The clutch rocker pedal shaft being small diameter can be a problem. When in the panic stop mode, and you accidently step on both front and rear pedal at the same time, you WILL break the shaft at the motor mount (I have done it twice). Some of the original shafts have been harden a little too much by Indian and will snap. Some are not too hard, they will bend at the motor mount plate (I have done this also). This is very important!! You must keep the nut on the other end of the clutch pedal shaft tight, this will keep the softer shaft from bending at the motor mount plate under normal operations. I always carried a spare clutch shaft with me while riding and have needed it. The motor case bosses are also a little weak, you will see a lot of them with the bottom boss broke off.
If you look at a lot of original rear motor mount plates, you will see that the bottom hole is worn out. While this is the brake shaft hole, it also must be kept tight. If you plan on riding you ’14 Indian a lot, then all the motor mount nuts will loosen up over time, so they all need to be checked every so often. One way to tell if the case nuts have loosen is by the oil puddle under the bike.
I would not hold your breath on finding original crossover shaft with levers. Over all those years, I have only seen one set with rear motor mount plates. I have seen only two shafts. So expect to make you own. The rear motor mount plate with the crossover shaft hole are around, some with the bushing, some without the bushing (bushing can be added).
Spacke2speed

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
Oppps forgot to mention something important. Your transmission shifter,
If you use a ’15 transmission, you will need to find the correct ’15 shifter assembly for that ’15 transmission. Some ’15 transmission have an in-gear locking feature. Some ’15 transmission do not have a system that keeps them from jumping out of gear, this will requires having a locking feature at the knob. If you use a ‘16PP transmission, you will still need find a ’15 three speed locking shifter.
The reason is one version of the ’15 and the ‘16 transmissions do not have a method of holding them in gear, so the shifting lever has to have an in-gear locking feature. The ’17 up transmission have an interlock on the transmission that require the clutch to be depressed before it can be shifted. So on a ’17 up transmission you can use a none-locking type shifter, like a ’15 two speed shifter assembly or some kind of homemade system.
Sorry I over looked this “little” detail earlier.
Spacke2speed

[Glr101s]

Spacke2speed;

Thanks again for your thorough reply! I bolted my three speed on to the frame today to check alignment with the rear sprocket. Good news - my trans has a detent mechanism the locks the shifter quadrant and apparently is released by the clutch lever. Trans has "15" stamped on the case-don't know if that's the year or some other identifier.

Bad news is that the mainshaft is bent - looks like it was dropped on the clutch many moons ago. Anyone have an extra shaft???

Gordon

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
You mentioned that you do not know which clutch pedal you had.
So here are some pictures of a Hedstrom in a two speed chassis with a ’15 transmission install long age using a PP clutch pedal setup. I thought you might want to see these pictures in case you do have a PP clutch pedal, and not to worry, it is still workable. The frame still has the two speed shifter boss on the top frame tube, but is not used. What is interesting is the use of a PP clutch foot pedal, as well as the PP clutch lever arm. The clutch pedal mounting brackets use the bottom hole of the rear motor mount plates and the bottom motor case nuts.
I have taken these pictures, but being new to this Forum thing, do not know how to attach them.
8485 -Two speed shifter is used, transmission has interlock system
8486 - Front ¾ view of two speed shifter
8487 - Rear motor mount plate with cross over hole in it, but no bushing, not using a crossover
8489 - Brake pedal stud with brake pedal on bottom of rear motor mount plates
8492 - Shows the kick start arm mounting bracket
8490 - This is a setup that uses a PP clutch pedal, so a pedal shaft mount was needed – right side
8493 - Left side of the setup that used a PP clutch pedal
If you want, I can take a also take a pictue of the transmission to help you ID yours, it is a '15 with the shifting interlock. But how do I get them to you
Sorry I do not know how to attach these pictures
Spacke2speed

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
You got me thinking about my old ’14 Indian and now memories of issues are coming back.
Your kick starting setup could have issues if everything is not right. The gear ratchet teeth interface with the ratchet teeth on the outside clutch plate must be in good shape, with no excess tolerance. The kick starter arm gear must mesh properly with the clutch starter gear. The kick starter arm mounting must be ridge with not flexing, not excess tolerance, and tight. If one or more of these things is not right, half way through your kick starting stroke, the gears or ratchet with disengage, not good on your knees.
Spacke2speed

[Glr101s]

Gordon
You mentioned that you do not know which clutch pedal you had.
So here are some pictures of a Hedstrom in a two speed chassis with a ’15 transmission install long age using a PP clutch pedal setup. I thought you might want to see these pictures in case you do have a PP clutch pedal, and not to worry, it is still workable. The frame still has the two speed shifter boss on the top frame tube, but is not used. What is interesting is the use of a PP clutch foot pedal, as well as the PP clutch lever arm. The clutch pedal mounting brackets use the bottom hole of the rear motor mount plates and the bottom motor case nuts.
I have taken these pictures, but being new to this Forum thing, do not know how to attach them.
8485 -Two speed shifter is used, transmission has interlock system
8486 - Front ¾ view of two speed shifter
8487 - Rear motor mount plate with cross over hole in it, but no bushing, not using a crossover
8489 - Brake pedal stud with brake pedal on bottom of rear motor mount plates
8492 - Shows the kick start arm mounting bracket
8490 - This is a setup that uses a PP clutch pedal, so a pedal shaft mount was needed – right side
8493 - Left side of the setup that used a PP clutch pedal
If you want, I can take a also take a pictue of the transmission to help you ID yours, it is a '15 with the shifting interlock. But how do I get them to you
Sorry I do not know how to attach these pictures
Spacke2speed

Can you send them to me in an email. My email is glr101s@aol.com. The pictures would be very helpful!! Thanks in advance.
Gordon

[Shaky Jake]

Can you send them to me in an email. My email is glr101s@aol.com. The pictures would be very helpful!! Thanks in advance.
Gordon

If you include me on that email I would be glad to host them and attach them to this thread. I would be interested in seeing them and there will probably be others too. I'm at knaser@inebraska.com

Thanks,

Kevin