402 rods puzzle

[JURIS R.]

Hello All,

As my 1929 402 5-bearing crank engine came with the wrong rods - the 1936-1937 type and they have too narrow between-the-studs distance for conversion to babbit-lined bronze or B-850 bearings, I am now looking for a source where I could buy or trade a set of 4 rods for my engine.

I have already lost hope in finding the right type 1929 -- 1935 originals, or swopping my perfect set of 1936-1937 rods for the earlier type either.

So far I have been advised that post-war Indian Vertical Twin rods are very suitable and a way to go, but it seems they are as rare as hens teeth nowadays! Carillo rods are too exotic, unnecessary and most probably beyond my financial possibilities at the moment.

So my question to the Indian 4 fraterinity is:
What do all those engine rebuilders nowadays use for replacement rods on early Fours? Maybe there exists a source manufacturing/retailing sensibly priced replacements?

I am asking these questions because I have now got measurements and photos of VT rods and if I fail to locate any anywhere in the wide world I am going to make up a batch or two of my own, machining them out from billets of chrome-nickel steel.

It might even be worthwhile to make the bigend holes suitable for modern Clevite or King bearings. Has anyone done this conversion before? If so maybe they could kindly suggest bearing specifications a.o. details. My crank journals have been rebuilt back to standard size. Thank you!

Juris R.
Latvia

[Oldchief]

Call Bob Stark, he can get you as many rods as you need (4) I believe the number is 951-780-9468. He is in Perris, California. Google him. Starklite Cycles.

Old Chief

[JURIS R.]

402 rods puzzle

Hello Old Chief,

Thank you very much for your lead. I have googled Starklite Cycle, found their e-mail and sent off an enquiry, that is much easier for me than calling, besides they may be closed for holidays and the time zone is different too.

With very best wishes for the New Year,

Juris R.
AMCA#10622

[Oldchief]

I'm not exactly sure where you are located, but you can talk by phone to either Gary or Bob. Bob, Gary's father, has a warehouse full of Vertical Twin parts. The rods are the same as the ones in the Indian 4.

Old Chief

[JURIS R.]

Hi, I am located in Latvia, that is a Baltic state in Europe just across the Baltic sea from Sweden -- so basically somewhat on the other side of the Globe. I have e-mailed and faxed Bob (no reply yet) and will try to call him next week as I suspect that many people/companies in the US had extended New Year holidays. Thanks for your advice and support.

Juris R.

[JURIS R.]

I'm not exactly sure where you are located, but you can talk by phone to either Gary or Bob. Bob, Gary's father, has a warehouse full of Vertical Twin parts. The rods are the same as the ones in the Indian 4.

Old Chief

Hi Old Chief,

I have e-mailed, faxed and poned Starklite Cycles, enquiring about Vertical Twin rods in December and then the beginning of last week. There was a promise to check availability and e-mail back to me on the next day and now I am patiently, but not very optimistically waiting... They are probably very busy or there may be some other reason, so I am still waiting for a positive outcome with my fingers crossed...

Juris R.

[redfred84]

4our rods

Ol' Bob isn't one for email, but Gary is. However, they are two seperate entities. Your best bet is to phone Bob. Your '36-37 rods should work though. They are very desirable. Have you tried Jorgen Sundberg in Sweden, at Grevbo Engineering?
Good luck, RF.

[JURIS R.]

402 rods puzzle

Hello Red Fred,

Thank you for your advice regarding who to call at Starklite. I did reach them once on the phone, but was not so lucky the second time as their answering machine said they are closed January 19th through 27th.

I have two concerns about the 1936-1937 rods. First the small end is rather thin and will not accept a proper bronze bush I think. If I can have a set of new pistons made locally I may have to use smaller diametre pins which will allow for bronze bushes, hopefully not compromising the strength of the pins. I would not want to use the original type pins with a snap ring in the midle of the small end pin hole. I have been advised that the VT rods have more meat in that smallend area.

Secondly, the distance between the 2 cap threaded studs is narrower than on the earlier rods. These 1936-1937 rods had been babbited direct on steel without using replacement babbited bronze inserts as on some of the earlier rods.

Thus if I machine the rods to take the recommended thickness of 1/8" for a babbit lined bronze bearing or B-850 -- these studs will be seriously weakened. My crankshaft has been rebuilt back to standard size, it is not undersize. It occurred to me that maybe I should machine the bigend holes to size (with bolted up caps) and then replace the studs with new studs? Then I would have to file the sides of inserts accordingly to fit between the studs. Not sure if that would work -- would appreciate highly some advice from those who "have been there already".

Thank you.

Juris R.

[Tom Wilcock]

402 rods puzzle

I would not hesitate to rebabbit your 1936-7 rods and use them. They will fit in your engine. I have over 70,000 miles (over 100,000 km) in my 440 with original babbit rods. I use modern pistons and used manganese bronze bushings in the small end to accomodate the smaller pins in the new pistons. I also have a 1929 402 and plan to build it the same. I will try to find someone who will trade your rods for earlier ones if you wish. The only difference between your rods and earlier ones is that the big end does not split in the center of the bore. This means the cap is slightly smaller than for other years. Because of the off center bore, studs were used because holes for bolts would come into the bore. Tom AMCA # 381

[JURIS R.]

Hello Tom,

Thank you for your reply. I will do as you advise and will rebabbit with tin babbit -- I have a new rod boring bench -- a Zanrosso, so machining should not be a problem apart from casting in the babbit. I have done it for tractors in the past, but possibly have to try centrifuge casting at our shipyard -- it might produce a better result. I have read a lot about conrods pounding out the babbit sooner than main bearings. Perhaps it is from highspeed riding on freeways? I am certainly not going to thrash my Indian 4 -- just riding sensibly to rallies. Anyway I will try to find a spare set of VT rods to keep in reserve, because if something happens I will not find replacements quickly...
Regarding the 1929 402 -- where do people get replacement valves and springs? I have noted that most dealers in the US sell stuff for later Indian Fours. Is that right?

Juris R.

[Tom Wilcock]

402 rod puzzle

Juris: I was wrong when I said about the bolt holes for 1936-7 rods coming into the bores. I don't know what I was thinking. The reason 1936-7 rods have studs is because bolt heads would hit the cam lobes. I bought repro valve springs years ago at an AMCA meet. I will try to remember who the vendor was. A spring shop could make valve springs if they had a sample. I do not know of any repro valves. I am going to modify a modern valve that is close. Send me a PM and I will try to find out who I got my springs from. Tom AMCA #381

[JURIS R.]

Hi Tom and others,
I had no luck with Starklite -- e-mailed, faxed and called them several times, then they were closed for a longer period and I left messages on the answering machine, etc. Then
I stumbled across 3 good rods on e-bay -- they are 402 type and I won them. Then I was offered another rod and one more rod without a cap from New Zealand in exchange for some earlier 401 rods. As one of my friends said "I was having all my birthdays at once!" So after a while I will have a full set of the original rods and can now get ready for the rebuild. Thanks everyone who helped with suggestions.
JURIS R.