Indian Four Generator Not Charging

[kenpell]

My '41 Indian Four's generator does not appear to be charging. Actually the ammeter shows a discharge while it's running and a distinct discharge when the lights are on. Any experienced technicians out there who can walk me through troubleshooting this thing or who I might be able to send it to if it needs a rebuild?
Any assistance will be MOST appreciated. Also looking a source for any Four technical manuals. Thanks!

Ken

[inrustwetrust]

This is a dog that has been whipped many times in these forums. Spend some time and do some searches. Read the magazine also. If you give a little history to the machine it will help in getting a direction in where to look. Was this machine just rebuilt and it doesn't work, or did it quit after working fine? The number one cause of generators not working is bad grounding. That usually is because the machine and generator has been layered with a thick coat of smooth shiny paint during restoration and the paint acts as an insulator. Mike Blanchard recently recommended putting a wad of solder under the field screw to make the ground. I have been doing that for years and it works well. Make sure the generator is grounded in all ways: to the machine and to itself. If that all checks good, polarize the generator. I doubt many experts will ever admit to wiring up the ampmeter backwards as a cause, but I will. That will make it appear to discharge while running, however it will mysteriously seem to charge when the engine is off. Take the belt off and throw 6 volts to it and see if it motors. If it motors grounded to itself you still have a bad ground to the battery.If those things check OK, the next step would be to check the brushes to be sure that they all are still in place and making contact. After that , yank it off, rant and rave( in private ) and collect your thoughts and try again. If all else fails, find qualified help. Better yet, throw the cover back on and come back another day after you have talked around, read a little and feel patient. Are we having fun yet?

[inrustwetrust]

Another thing that is important is the cutout or regulator. It is likely that you have a high output generator. The high output generator has a regulator. The high output regulator is easy to identify. It has a cover that is about 2-1/4"square. The cutout cover is about 1" by 2-1/4". I must admit that my experience in troubleshooting a high output regulator is limited. It has to do with the ground and I always forget which is which and makes me also regret responding to this thread Make sure the contacts are good and the body is grounded. You can still check the generator by getting it before the cutout or regulator. that will help decide what is giving you trouble. Again, if this is a recent unproven assembly, you must determine that you have the correct components assembled. I do not believe that you can run a regulator on a regular generator or vise/verse. Anyhow, hopefully I got the ball of information rolling for you

[kenpell]

Many thanks for the start. It appears to have been restored and it looks to have a cutout vice a voltage regulator. I'll keep ypu posted on what I find. Any suggested experts I can send it to if I come up short?

[PRG]

Howdy Ken,

Unlike the geared-up Chiefs, distributor ignition 4’s only turn their generators at crankshaft speed and as their output – to a degree – is rpm dependent, you’re looking at less potential output to work with in this application, thus its even more important to optimize that limited output. At idle, even an optimized 6v generator (2 brush conversion/electronic regulator) on a distributor ignition 4 will show little/no output. Flip – in your case a 4.5amp sealed beam – headlight on and it will show a dramatic discharge. On 16’s (?) with a 16-18 tooth final drive sprocket, if you can’t zero your ammeter out by 35mph or so, you’ll probably need to take a look at your charging system.

You mention having a cutout fitted(?), this implies it’s fitted with a third brush assembly which fixes output potential based on where the third brush is positioned. Rotate it in the direction of generator rotation increases output – in other words, putting it closer to the brush which is grounded to the case increases output. After removing the cutout and band, it is the middle brush.

Not to dilute the utility of this forum, you can find more information on this and other 4 issues at the Virtual Indian Forum. A general search of residual voltage, field coils, third brush, cutout, regulator, polarizing, or my id of peterg440 should help provide some pointers. Here is a typical post on the subject.

Couple of general things here beyond the above adjustment and other posts:
Distributor 4 vs magneto model: removing distributor to “motor” it means potential to loose your ignition timing, mark your shafts carefully before pulling drive coupling. If it motors very slowly, don’t worry, distributor/drive adds quite a load.
Polarizing: term you’ll see in reference to restoring magnetism in your field coils, not required for cutout equipped generators, and rarely for regulator equipped autolites, they have good quality pole shoes and retain magnetism for years.
Field coil connection: ensure the wires joining your two field coils within the generator body are soldered, not just folded/crimped over and taped.
Fuses: late 4’s have multi circuit fusing and a bad tendency for holders to anneal/corrosion to develop. Best insurance is to take your charging system out of the fuse setup (if applicable) and add a 15amp circuit breaker to your battery ground.

[kenpell]

Thanks Peter! I appreciate the info. I'll give your tips a try. I'm sure I'll still have a lot to learn about this Four. It's my first. I've had my '53 Chief for about 3 years and I'm still learning all of its electrical quirks as well.

Safe riding!

Ken

[Tom Lovejoy]

How did your generator turn out Ken? I had mine apart on my scout the other day. I broke a brush and had to put in another - then I broke another. Ended up putting two new ones on, then the generator worked but just barely. Got some fine sand paper and shaped the brushes to the comuntator, making much better and even contact and now its working great. Probably not your problem, but its worth checking and it can make a heck of a difference, good luck.

[kenpell]

Hi Tom!
Actually, the generator was fried from the inside. It needed new everything including field coils and a rewound armature. Works great now. Next issue is to troubleshoot why my Four has only 15 lbs of oil pressure. More to follow on that one too...