Welding cases

[Indiantim]

Hi

Any one got contact details for Larry Struck?

I sent my 36 case for welding, to rectify a previous welded repair to one of the bearing pedestals in the transmission, however my welder is having big problems with contamination and needs to know the composition of the alloy.

I know Larry is an expert on four case reclamation.

thanks

[partshunt]

Have you contacted Larry since this post yet? I have heard that he is not in the Four biz any longer. Anyone else have any news on him?. Also, anothr Four rebuilder I cant find any longer is Dennis Young. Any late news on these fellas?.....Joe

[Indiantim]

Hi Joe,

I asked in the Indian Four Club and Larry no longer trades apparently. However Henderson Precision now do case welding, Guy Hendersen. He worked with Larry at one time and lives nearby.

My problem is being based in the UK, I would prefer to get the repair done over here. My professional welder has problems with oil contamination in the case and needs to know what type of welding rod to use.

I think Dennis Young's son was going to re start the business, but no recent progress.

thanks for reply

[partshunt]

Tim: Guy Henderson is one of the best there is. He also makes wonderfull parts but not enough sometimes. Its a tough biz, the Four biz is. You say Dennis Youngs son??? Dennis is the son of Ken Young who has passed on 10 or so years back and as far as I knew in dealing with Dennis, he was it. Didnt think HIS son would take a at it?? but, who knows?... Dennis Youngs home and shop phones did not answer my calls in several attemps I made a coupla months back. I just hope he is doing well cuz he did have some problems by the sound of it on the phone about 6 or 7 years back when he worked on my engine...Joe

[Ivor]

Hi Tim, Have you got your cases welded now ? I live in Sussex and it has taken me 8 years to get my cases welded ! It has cost a lot and I have learned a lot ! I would like to hear how you have got on so far.
Regards,
Ivor.

[partshunt]

Well, I can tell you my story for what it is worth about welding cases. My Indian Four cases were cracked around the flywheel housing which is the common place when the drive chain breaks. So when I called the so called Indian Expert, he said he uses the motor mount to hold and align both pieces for welding, to me, that is crude, not accurate. Yes, You need to bolt the cases to a plate , that is mandatory to hold everything but I went one step further for more accuracy. I had a bar made up to fit the main and clutch bearing saddles and another bar 90 degrees from the bar for the transmission bearing saddles, machined to .001-002" tolerance within the 90 degrees. Then I tac welded the cases in the proper stock position and sent them the the so called Indian 4 Expert.
This "'expert cut my tac welds and bolted it to his plate using only the mount holes for alignment and welded them up. They came back to me and I reinstalled my accurate alignment bar and found he welded the cases together .040 off the 90 degrees. So, I ended up using them as is, the way he done em .040 out., So now the trans mainshaft is not at 90 degrees but tilted .040" . So, I left it that way and for the bevel gears to wear in and all will be fine but it is not in the stock position any longer. It is fine now and has been running ten or so years that way, not noisy as I was worried about that. I have no use for some of these "Indian Experts". One ended up driving a taxi and a drunk for a living.

[Ivor]

Well, I have been disappointed with so many people over this project ! They have just not done what they said they would do, and then told me lies to excuse themselves. First off a Indian expert told me to leave the cases bolted together to stop them from warping,,,, when I picked them up,,, some of the bolts/nuts had been buried under the weld and the oil seals had been incinerated.
The next welder told me that they was going to bolt the cases to a block and xray the welds to ensure good penetration as well bolting a mandrel across the main and clutch shaft saddles. I picked the cases up after 8 years and found they had done none of the above, the cases had distorted so much that the crankshaft wouldn't fit and shrinkage cracks all over the place. The next "Expert" took 12 months, when they said 3 months, charged £17k when they said £10k and omitted to carry out four of the jobs that they said, Were "Not a problem " When they took the job on. But, after saying all of that,,, Nothing is easy with these motors,,,,The Lynite alloy is basically an old pot metal that has had dirty old engine oil soaking into it for 80 years and they distort so easy, so I think we have to "Count our blessings" That the cases did not end up as a molten pool on the bench !

[Ivor]

Hi Joe,
Did your cases have to be skimmed or did the top and bottom faces fit flat with each other ?

[partshunt]

Yes, I had them perfectly flat because with both bars torqued down in the crank and trans mainshaft saddles. I then bolted the oil pan on and it was parrallell checked with a feeler gauge so I was comfortable with my alignment and so I sent em off to this "Guru". With the bar in place,the cases automatically were parallel and flat. When the A-Hole was done, the oil pan was no longer parallel and one side was built up with JB Weld as per his suggestion. Crappy but no leaks for ten years now... To go further with this guy, the crank came untorqued, loose and with the old .005" shim stack back in. Also, the number one bearing was line bored .005" lower than all the rest. That is one reason the crank jammed. I borrowed his boring equiptment and I line bored it myself in the end with all 1/16 thick solid shims under all the caps.. Wasted two years but you, sorry to say, those guys you went to wasted more time than my "Guru". Maybe my expert was the same one as one of yours. BTway, my four is a 1929 402 5 mains. What is your machine?

[Ivor]

My four is a 440 engine in a 37 bike. I bought it 'Blind' from Wisconsin, the seller told me that the motor had just undergone a total rebuild that took five years and I was reassured by the engine builder that it was a " Good one " So it was together and running when I collected it from the docks. What started this whole thing off, was the scruffy welding job, and when I attempted to dress and tidy the welds, I found that the welding had hardly penetrated and I pealed most of it off with a knife, so I striped it down and found the cases did not meet at the back by maybe 60 thou, I found shimming paper under some of the bearings and the white metal bearings looked like brake discs when the pads should have been renewed miles ago.
The sad thing is, that having spent years and years working my way up to being able to buy a four, I am so fed up with the dam thing, that I just want to complete the build and sell it, because I feel that I will worried about it all happening again.
I know that the most popular belief is that a broken chain causes these breaks, but my four had a tooth missing from one of the bevelled gears and I feel that this tooth breaking off, was the cause with my four.

[T. Cotten]

Sorry Folks,...

All the TIGmeisters thoroughly experienced with vintage castings are dead.
Or close...

Younger masters know better than to try.

....Cotten

[Ivor]

Well I was given hope by the last guy that worked on my engine, when he told me that his welder would chemically clean the cases and then lazer weld them, the advantage being that lazer welding only heats a tiny area and doesn't warp the cases. But to this day I have no idea what welding he did for the £5k that he charged me! Does anyone on here know about Lazer welding ?

[T. Cotten]

Well I was given hope by the last guy that worked on my engine, when he told me that his welder would chemically clean the cases and then lazer weld them, the advantage being that lazer welding only heats a tiny area and doesn't warp the cases. But to this day I have no idea what welding he did for the £5k that he charged me! Does anyone on here know about Lazer welding ?

Ivor!

We now know it is expensive, but please tell us if the welding survived duty?

....Cotten

[exeric]

There are many good welders out there, and Indian cases were by far a better alloy than used on post Detroit Hendersons. Unfortunately, the 4 cylinder business has been populated by many crooks, fakes, and phonies and it is such a travesty that those bastards chose motorcycles to ply their nefarious trade. I have had more than a few Hendersons, and Indian 4's but I have always done my own machine work, and have been fortunate to know talented welders. I believe there are still many young, sophisticated, and knowledgeable welders who will go to great lengths to do quality work. As Eddie Settle used to tell me; 4 cylinder motor work is not brain surgery. Use common sense, and standard machine practice. I am so sorry that you have had such a bad experience, Ivor. I had a Henderson KJ that was like that, and it was the most miserable motorcycle I have ever owned. I don't necessarily blame Schwinn for that, but after so many decades of mis-use, and fu*Ced-up repairs, I became the beneficiary of all that cumulative abuse. I think you do need to rid yourself of that demon, but you should pass on a good repair, or at best; a full disclosure to the next owner.

[tator]

My name is Terry and I am pretty new around here. I owned a welding/job shop for 35 years and we specialized in broken and rusted car frames but in 35 years I welded an awful lot of motors and transmission and cast aluminum. The number one enemy in motor cycle parts is oil and grease that has contaminated the aluminum and has soaked in the pores for years. My main reason for posting this for the gentlemen overseas who's welder is having contamination problems, and thinks it is the alloy, when it is more than likely the grease and oil. So being I am retired and I am no help to you to weld it start by taking your casings, getting them clean as possible, because most welding shops do not have the facility to clean it as it should be. Transmission shops have hot tanks that does a pretty decent job of cleaning this stuff. After getting the parts back from the local transmission shop I would take a propane torch and I would go over the spots that I was going to weld and you can watch that area turn wet as the oil would actually burn out of the pores and you would be surprised after the through cleaning how much oil comes out of the metal, even on stuff that has been glass beaded. When you start welding and establish a puddle, life Is good, add a drop of welding rod every thing gets black, it is not clean enough, you go, this is not sticking, you are not clean enough. These new welding machines are what they call a square wave machine. When you are tig welding aluminum you are using AC current, AC current goes up and down, These new square wave machines the current goes down, over and back up, like a box. This is a self cleaning mode. The more clean you put on the dial, the less penetration you have on your weld and the young guys will put more clean on the dial , that's fine if you are welding across a sheet of aluminum because that square current is pushing the dirt ahead of the weld which in a casting that is not flat or not in a hole it has no place to put the dirt but back into your weld. So once you have a dirty weld and you bridge over it everything keeps getting worse. So all you can do Is grind it out and start over. So my suggestion is to clean this and use a propane torch and get the part spotless before you take it to your welding shop. Just my two cents..... Terry