47 Chief frame repair and dimensions?

[Roadhome]

The next challenge. The frame is in okay enough shape but has a couple of issues. This is the first. The seat post tube evidently came loose at the lower casting before and someone said "I'll braze it up for ya". Don't know how long that poor repair held up but I'll wager not long. You can see where it separated all the way around. Well, I've fooled with brazing a little and I think I can do a better job than the previous repairist (my word). Here's the thing, here's the two things actually.

First, should I just get this welded by someone who is good and be done with it? This bike will not be shown or entered into contests but it will be ridden. Would welding be best even though I really want to braze it because it's consistent with original design. Plus, there's the fact that I just want to be able to say I did it.

Second, I've got a large threaded rod through it with nuts and washers on both ends. The idea being that I want to control expansion while it heat cycles during repair. If I draw it tight I can compress the frame roughly 3/16" at least. Should I compress it and completely seat the tube in the casting or let it live where it is now which seems to be it's neutral happy place? If someone knows how I should properly measure that height between upper and lower casting and what that dimension should be, I'd be appreciative. Additionally any thoughts in general are appreciated. I know there are companies out there who will do this to perfection for me but this is being built on a bit of a budget and they will all (rightfully so) want money.

[pisten-bully]

Alex, pretty sure welding is out of the question, I don't think you can weld steel that has been brazed. I'd be happy to measure up my '46 seat post for you tomorrow, casting to casting.

[Roadhome]

Pisten-Bulley Ya, that was floating around in the back of my mind as being a no go factor for welding. I'm glad you vocalized it (so to speak. Speak? Type) I'd appreciate the measurement. I did find a dim sheet that Cotten posted on a thread from 2017. It has the measurement from the center of a hole in the lower casting to the center of a hole in the upper casting of 11.6735. I'd be interested in a real world distance and where you measure it from. I have a feeling I'm going to try and jig this thing up a bit tomorrow for a more proper look at it.

[T. Cotten]

Brass isn't friendly, Roadhome!

I suggest a hightemp silver-solder, such as Stay-Silv 15, of which I have a surplus.

It has a better affinity with the original "spelter" and will wick into seams and cracks.

....Cotten
PS: George Yarocki called it "spelter", but it never smelled like zinc/lead to me.

[Jerry Wieland]

The next challenge. The frame is in okay enough shape but has a couple of issues. This is the first. The seat post tube evidently came loose at the lower casting before and someone said "I'll braze it up for ya". Don't know how long that poor repair held up but I'll wager not long. You can see where it separated all the way around. Well, I've fooled with brazing a little and I think I can do a better job than the previous repairist (my word). Here's the thing, here's the two things actually.

First, should I just get this welded by someone who is good and be done with it? This bike will not be shown or entered into contests but it will be ridden. Would welding be best even though I really want to braze it because it's consistent with original design. Plus, there's the fact that I just want to be able to say I did it.

Second, I've got a large threaded rod through it with nuts and washers on both ends. The idea being that I want to control expansion while it heat cycles during repair. If I draw it tight I can compress the frame roughly 3/16" at least. Should I compress it and completely seat the tube in the casting or let it live where it is now which seems to be it's neutral happy place? If someone knows how I should properly measure that height between upper and lower casting and what that dimension should be, I'd be appreciative. Additionally any thoughts in general are appreciated. I know there are companies out there who will do this to perfection for me but this is being built on a bit of a budget and they will all (rightfully so) want money.

I've fixed a few Indian frames and 'joint slippage' other than wrecked is probably the most common problem. A little word of advice here. When you take that tube out of there you would see that Indian struggled to get those big castings hot enough to flow much brass in a furnace. The chances of you getting them hot enough with a torch is even less, I used to clean them up and then wire weld them and then dress the weld so when painted it looked like a braze joint.

Jerry

[Roadhome]

Thanks for the input Cotten and Jerry.
I agree, brass is difficult and my biggest concern is getting the joint hot enough. My largest torch tip (right now) is 3. Do you think that would be large enough? I don't have experience with high temp silver solder. I'm certainly willing to go get some though. So that over low fuming bronze? I have the outside of the joint pretty well cleaned up (see pic) and can clean it a bit more with a die grinder. I had not planned on removing the tube so I can't get to the inside of the casting to clean. I was going to rely on flux to do the job if I braze. Now I'm back to thinking about welding. Do you think this can be wire welded as it is?
I'll be asking about my mismatched tanks soon. One is brazed and needs leak repair and one silver soldered (I think) but that's a different post. I only mention it because I'm trying to wrap my head around what the factory did when and why and what the proper repair is.
Back to the frame, for obvious reasons I want to get this right while staying within a tight budget. All input for consideration is appreciated. I think I'll go stare at this thing for awhile longer

[pisten-bully]

...measured my frame (note, not a precision measurement, simply a tape measure with a slight detour over the generator bracket and end points partially obscured by braze)

fetch.jpg

[Roadhome]

Man that's great. Thank you.

[T. Cotten]

As Harry (Piston-Bully) already noted, Roadhome,...

Once brass, or pretty much any other non-ferrous filler has adhered to the steel or iron, you can't conventionally weld it.

Welding is high enough temperature to melt the brass or whatever into the metal, called 'admixture', and it is not a good thing.

So you must keep it to the melting temperature of the brass, or lower, such as with silver-solder.

.....Cotten

[Roadhome]

Guess I'll be purchasing some Stay Silv 15 tomorrow and doing some practice work.
Thanks,
Alex

[Bills37]

I have replaced this tube before and it is not difficult if you have access to a lathe. As you can see the tube extends thru the top casting and into the bottom casting. I sawed the center section out and used an acetylene torch to cut and peal out the tube that remained in the castings 2015-06-27 09.39.07_zpsedqunnsm.JPG

[Bills37]

2015-06-27 10.12.05_zpsecelplcj.JPG

[T. Cotten]

Guess I'll be purchasing some Stay Silv 15 tomorrow and doing some practice work.
Thanks,
Alex

Ask your supplier what they suggest, Alex!

I only suggested Stay-Silv because I found five pounds in the dumpster.

....Cotten

[Bills37]

I got the chrome moly tubing from McMaster-Carr, You will need to drill a hole in it and machine the inside for the seat post bushing.

[Bills37]

I just brazed it together, It lasted two years so far.

340frame800.jpg