Welding (metallurgy) tips for repairing Indian castings and frames

[BDWalker]

I know this is a really expansive question, but I am looking for any tips I can get concerning the repair of Indian frames. For the last year, I have had the good fortune to work with a Harley frame repair guy working on hacked up knucklehead and panhead frames, and while I know some of that knowledge is transferrable, I also realize that HD and Indian frames, metallurgy and joining methods are like apples and oranges. Unfortunately, it also sounds like a lot of the guys who were expert at Indian frame repair have passed away, so I'll appreciate any info you folks have to impart.

I'll narrow down my request by telling you what I am trying to do...

Right now, I am trying to "de-rake" a chopperized chief neck to stock rake and attach it to a 47 Chief frame. The 47 frame is headless but otherwise excellent. The neck has been welded and had support plates added. My intention is to remove the plates, dress down the weld and re-weld it to the correct rake. And that's where my questions start...

--What type of metal is the neck?
--What type of filler rod should I use?
--What type of welding method do I use (Tig, Arc, Oxy/Acet)?
--Anything else?

After I get the neck back to original rake, I planned on splicing it to the rest of the frame, pinning it and then brazing/sweating it together. As we do on the HD stuff, anywhere I join tubing, I plan on using inner sleeve inserts (not solid slugs) that I turn down on a lathe to splice tube pieces together then weld them up and dress.

Does this sound reasonable? The HD connectors I'm familiar with are generally forged steel, but I'm really concerned about what material/metal the Indian castings are made of and how to weld them. I know that certain metals (cast?) are notoriously hard to work with and dress.

If this topic has been mentioned elsewhere, I apologize, but I couldn't find any previous discussions.

Thanks!
Brian

[T. Cotten]

I'm not an expert welder, Brian!

But I have experience with Indian frames.

The headstock and castings smelled like cast iron to me.
So I used air compressor piston rings for filler rod, and it worked quite well.
Oxy/Acetylene is all I can afford (but with a pricey Henrob torch!).

I owe it all to the Dillon Mark IV.

....Cotten

[BDWalker]

Thanks Cotton. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm having fun fumbling around! I'll look into this pricey torch.

[T. Cotten]

It let an amateur like me, Brian,...

Fill in when the skilled professionals weren't available.

Now, most all of the locals are dead.

It comes with a range of tips from tiny to one big enough for a bulkhead.

....Cotten
PS: Its fantastic for silver-soldering!
For many metals, I use no flux at all.

Aluminum, however, eludes me, even though I watched a live demonstration.

[larry]

Did Indian really use cast iron? Seems like an odd choice.

[T. Cotten]

Did Indian really use cast iron? Seems like an odd choice.

All I know, Larry,...

Is piston rings would have been a mess on anything else.

Here's a cast lawn furniture 'toe' broken across the hole.
The side closest has been ground to show perfect match and penetration.

No flux.

....Cotten
PS: Ever wonder why Indian choppers were not so common?

[Bubbalowe]

My frame has been raked, then cut apart and restored to original. Every time welding done by a professional weld shop using stick. The castings are weldable so not cast iron. In the era they were made metallurgy was not the exact science of today (think Titanic). Tubing is Dom and solid stepped slugs allow for better penetration so it can be smoothed. To align the neck I used a Weaver 22 scope slid in copper tubing with bushing soldered on to match installed neck beatings then sighted to a string stretched down the center line bottom of frame. This was done 40 years ago and worked well, today would use a toy laser. A good Tig weld would be best choice today.

[swall]

Metal identification is one of the big problems when performing these sorts of repairs. On my '52 Chief, I actually took small samples from the article to be repaired and did a microscopic examination of the grain structure (I am a degreed metallurgical engineeer). All the castings I examined were malleable cast iron. This material is not weldable, but can be brazed using oxy-acetylene torch and brass filler rod. Short of performing this type of analysis, the safe way to proceed is to treat every casting as though it were malleable cast iron and use brazing as the method of repair.

[gsottl]

a friend of mine repaired this 401 frame by brazing and reinforcing it with a steel insert. He said the castings were not well tempered and very brittle on the surface if remember correctly. It had an old brazed repair on it before the "modern times" reoair has been done, as can be seen on one for the pictures.

[T. Cotten]

...The castings are weldable so not cast iron....

Read my previous posts, Bubbalowe!

Cast iron IS weldable.

... All the castings I examined were malleable cast iron. This material is not weldable,.....

Good thing cast iron doesn't know that, Swall!

My departed TIGmeister used either nickel or silicon-bronze.

A good pre-heat is adviseable.

....Cotten
PS: Sometimes its best not to be blinded by dogma.

[swall]

Gray cast iron is weldable, either with cast iron rod or Ni-Rod. Malleable cast iron is not weldable due to the formation of brittle iron carbide in the fusion zone. Malleable iron as a foundry product starts out as white cast iron (the same brittle iron carbide form) and the castings are given a long tempering process at around 1600F. This converts the iron carbides from the white iron into graphite clusters. These graphite clusters reside in a matrix of iron. The iron matrix gives the product its toughness compared to white iron or gray cast iron. The problem with trying to weld malleable cast iron is that when the iron melts in the fusion zone of the weld, it re-solidifies into the brittle white iron and you will have a brittle weld.

[T. Cotten]

Gray cast iron is weldable, either with cast iron rod or Ni-Rod. Malleable cast iron is not weldable due to the formation of brittle iron carbide in the fusion zone. Malleable iron as a foundry product starts out as white cast iron (the same brittle iron carbide form) and the castings are given a long tempering process at around 1600F. This converts the iron carbides from the white iron into graphite clusters. These graphite clusters reside in a matrix of iron. The iron matrix gives the product its toughness compared to white iron or gray cast iron. The problem with trying to weld malleable cast iron is that when the iron melts in the fusion zone of the weld, it re-solidifies into the brittle white iron and you will have a brittle weld.

So Indian castings were gray cast iron, Swall?

Because they are weldable.

One Chief came to me with the center stand lugs broken off at the holes.

I laid an aluminum rod where the bolt would go, and built up around it with piston rings.

The rod melted away, but not before I had enough meat to carve upon;
That was well over a decade and a half ago,..
The owner is a close associate, so I would have heard if they failed.

...Cotten
PS: I would never weld anything near a sweated or 'speltered' joint, of course.

[pisten-bully]

That’s great info, thanks Steve. (...explains why when we tried to repair a 100 year old sugaring arch, cast iron for making maple syrup, it didn’t work!)

[T. Cotten]

Did you cook it cherry-red in coals first, Harry?

Looked for the memorable 'malleable' upon castings in my shop, Folks,

And the first I found were C-clamps.
None were broken, but a couple of valve compressors were!

I had welded both at the spine,.. in a hurry naturally.

They must be gray iron, Steve?
(After all, they broke!)

Thanks in advance of course...

...Cotten
PS: A technique becomes a 'lost art' when they say you can't.

[larry]

How on earth did you break a valve spring compressor?