Clutch adjustment question

[Lipdog]

One thing I forgot in my last response... theres a pretty good tutorial video on UTube by Mike Tomas of KIWI Indian. "Kiwi Indian Clutch Adjustment".
Mike has several other UTube videos. They cover the basics, however as with most other things there are always a few 'tricks of the trade' and of course, you'll learn as you go. Again, as an Indian owner, you are learning things no one really cares too much about... until something goes wrong, or won't work as well as planned.
I'm sure you can find someone up in the bay area to mentor you. They are there, I know some of them. Of course the hunt for help will come easier when you are able to ride around the neighborhood on your Chief. Its certainly worth the effort, and you will be rewarded with making new and enduring friends. We here on the forum, all know you are new at this and several here have offered 'long distance help'. However, a warm body, someone close to home, is out there... you just have to seek them out. You'll get there eventually, don't get anxious, just be sure to get it right. This internet thing and the forum will only get you so far. Its a long road... You're doing fine. Good Luck, C2K

Yup, agree with all of that. I expected this bike to have some issues so I'm not bummed, I'm actually pretty happy. I've had it out around the hood three times already and will take it out again tomorrow to adjust a few things, esp the worm and clutch linkage. If all goes well I'll ride to Woodside on Sunday with my Harley buddy, which is about 15 mi each way, no highways. Once it starts raining I'm gonna have Indian Frank convert my generator to 12v and get a proper regulator and battery, so I can actually ride with the lights on. I'll pull the primary cover off then too and inspect everything. Appreciate all the help from everyone here. It's a really good group of folks.

[Lipdog]

I rode about 40 mi last weekend before the rain came. The bike ran well, but I still had the issue of the clutch creeping back into the engaged position, which stalls the bike if I'm not careful. The clutch otherwise works fine. As I mentioned before, I replaced the friction plate and spring and adjusted the foot lever and it seems to work well.

I had a chance to pull the cover off today. I also watched the Kiwi Indian video C2K recommended. As far as I can tell, everything looks good. The space between the pressure plates is between 1/8" and 3/16". It also looks like a new clutch. Check out the photos below. Is there anything that looks wrong? What else could be the source of this problem?

IMG_0540.jpgIMG_0541.jpgIMG_0542.jpgIMG_0543.jpgIMG_0544.jpg

[ChiefTwoKicks]

Before I get too deep here... is your transmission and the primary separate, or is the trans/primary open through and share the same oil ? Is the oil level correct and filled to the inspection plug with the bike on the center stand ? What oil are putting in the trans/primary ? I recommend Harley Sportster Trans fluid. Tension on the primary chain checked and measured through the inspection hole ? upper part of the chain should move up and down the width of the inspection hole when checked. If all that checks out, then you might want to check the worm gear and look for wear marks or spalling on the spirals. I had a clutch get real sticky once, and it turned out to be the worm needed to be replaced. I didn't really see evidence of the wear, but when I changed the worm, it solved my problem. Is the bike difficult to get into first gear when you first begin your ride ? Does it grind getting into gear ?
When your clutch "creeps"... what exactly is your left foot doing ? Are you putting the bike in gear, disengaging the clutch and then removing your foot from the pedal ? Are you "riding" the clutch pedal ? Maybe a more detailed explanation of what and how you come to the conclusion your clutch is "creeping" would help in understanding whats going on here... Its pretty hard to figure this out from a keyboard...
Some say you can take your foot off the clutch in the disengaged position and the pedal is "supposed" to remain disengaged. I never have trusted that statement. Although this is the first time I have ever encountered the problem you have. Gonna need more specific details from you about what is happening here to get a better handle on it. C2K

[Bubbalowe]

Agree with 2 kicks on not trusting pedal coming back. These aren’t Harleys with a cam over spring to hold down clutch pedal. My best setup will eventually walk back to engage after a minute or so. Looking at the tiny throwout bearings probably not a good idea to keep disengaged longer than a stoplight anyways.

[tfburke3]

Agree with 2 kicks on not trusting pedal coming back. These aren’t Harleys with a cam over spring to hold down clutch pedal. My best setup will eventually walk back to engage after a minute or so. Looking at the tiny throwout bearings probably not a good idea to keep disengaged longer than a stoplight anyways.

Consider also that the clutch hub bushing only spins on the shaft when the clutch is in and these bushings are almost always worn loose so minimize the time.
BTW I never trust or use this feature.
Tom

[pisten-bully]

Everything looks pretty new in there, and I suppose new springs that have a high spring rate could be contributing to the tendency for the clutch to creep back as it does. BTW, unless it looks like a momentary stop and then go, I would definitely shift to neutral and engage the clutch rather than sit there for a while with your toe down and clutch disengaged.

[ChiefTwoKicks]

I was thinking the same thing... everything looks pretty new ! Also, I don't see evidence of much oil on the clutch and clutch basket. also, no (or incorrect)lock washers on the clutch hub pins.
I was also wondering if there isn't enough oil in the primary/trans. If its any kind of dry, it will surly be grabby and may "creep" as Lipdog indicates.
tfburke has a good thought about the bushing on the clutch hub... I've seen alot of them badly worn and wobbling. Still running, but severely worn out !! Seems like there was alot of parts claimed to be "rebuilt" when our new friend bought the bike. Superficial as a "rebuild" as it may be... at least Jeff is digging deep and he'll get his Chief up and running soon. He's got a good attitude, and he's really making an effort. There are some who would have thrown in the towel and chalked it up as a bad move. I'm sure he has the dedication to see this through. Keep your chin up Jeff, you're almost through the hardest part. C2K

[Lipdog]

Yeah, that's what I have been doing. But I do want it to work properly and stay in position.

Even though I went through the pedal assembly per Mike Tomas at Kiwi and removed the paint on the circular part of the pedal, and installed new friction and metal disks and the correct spring, it's still pretty easy to move the pedal with my hand if the clutch rod is disconnected. I think that could be the problem. Since the nut is already tightened pretty far, I may rough up the metal and friction disks just a bit to see if I can get that to hold better.

[Lipdog]

Before I get too deep here... is your transmission and the primary separate, or is the trans/primary open through and share the same oil ? Is the oil level correct and filled to the inspection plug with the bike on the center stand ? What oil are putting in the trans/primary ? I recommend Harley Sportster Trans fluid. Tension on the primary chain checked and measured through the inspection hole ? upper part of the chain should move up and down the width of the inspection hole when checked. If all that checks out, then you might want to check the worm gear and look for wear marks or spalling on the spirals. I had a clutch get real sticky once, and it turned out to be the worm needed to be replaced. I didn't really see evidence of the wear, but when I changed the worm, it solved my problem. Is the bike difficult to get into first gear when you first begin your ride ? Does it grind getting into gear ?
When your clutch "creeps"... what exactly is your left foot doing ? Are you putting the bike in gear, disengaging the clutch and then removing your foot from the pedal ? Are you "riding" the clutch pedal ? Maybe a more detailed explanation of what and how you come to the conclusion your clutch is "creeping" would help in understanding whats going on here... Its pretty hard to figure this out from a keyboard...
Some say you can take your foot off the clutch in the disengaged position and the pedal is "supposed" to remain disengaged. I never have trusted that statement. Although this is the first time I have ever encountered the problem you have. Gonna need more specific details from you about what is happening here to get a better handle on it. C2K

The transmission and primary share the same oil. I checked by removing the plug on the bottom of the trans and adding oil to the primary, and it flowed through. I've been using the same 50w Driven high-zinc oil in the primary and trans. Would that be a problem? I did check the primary chain and the worm gear, and they look ok. The trans is smooth and shifts well too - even downshifting ahead of a stop. I don't ride the clutch, but if I disengage it fully and put the bike into (first) gear, and then take my foot off of the clutch, the clutch pedal sneaks back barely into the engaged position within 10 seconds or so. Thanks again.

[ChiefTwoKicks]

Lipdog- Of course, a long distance analysis isn't a satisfactory method to diagnose anything, but it's all we got here. Pisten-Bully also mentions the clutch springs. Have you measured and load tested them ? I noticed in your photos, the nuts (only) on the clutch hub pins. According to the book, there are supposed to be special lock washers and special nuts used at the ends of the pins. I know it sounds like "nit-picking", but I've been told by many that these washers/nuts are an important part of the clutch assembly. I've also had others say it doesn't matter. You decide. Why would some say IT does matter, and some say it doesn't ?

Go on-line and get the "Operation and Maintenance-Indian Motorcycle, model 340-B" manual. It is available from STARKLITE.com, @ $19.95. cheap at twice the price. Along with KIWI's book, "Motorcycle Builders Guide-powerplant edition", you'll have a leg up on many of your issues.
Although its a reprint and a few pages are out of sequence, the 340-B manual is some of the best info available, (Indian actually didn't publish alot of tech stuff, maybe a few bits in scattered issues of dealer service bulletins, which are very rare). Chiefs are pretty much all the same, for most maintenance and service work. The later wheel bearings and a few other items are not covered in this manual. But the manual will give you a good foundation for what you need to keep your Chief in good running order.

As far as your pressure plate measurement is concerned, you might want to lean toward the 3/16" clearance, rather than the 1/8" width. Sounds like your clutch isn't DIS-engaging enough.
On MY bikes, if my clutch pedal isn't all the way back, my clutch begins to slip enough, that when I try to start my bike, the kick-starter pedal simply slips and rotates as if the clutch pedal was
fully depressed. In other words, my clutch action is at the extreme end (2 o'clock)of the lever arm at the worm. The effective action isn't in the middle of the lever arms arc. Often, when starting my bike, I have to reach down and pull back on the top of the clutch pedal, to be sure the the clutch is fully engaged (in neutral, of course). The fact that the pedal works toe down to DIS-engage is opposite from the way Harley pedals are set up (some Indian riders prefer the "toe and go" clutch action). There must be a reason for the rear, spring-action tab on the clutch pedal. My guess is, that the action is more suited as you put your heel down firmly as the clutch FULLY engages. I'm guessing your clutch is fully engaged slightly before the pedal is all the way back, depressed by your left heel. Its maybe, only 1/4" or less (at the pedal), from the heel down position. This could be caused by many factors, including the location of your foot board sitting too high in relation to the plane of the frame leg. (we're getting too extreme here...) but you should look at every aspect of the geometry of the clutch arm, clutch rod, pedal & positioning, and all of the entire length of the leverage. Its all about leverage, and angle of attack. Simple concept, but, if any of the geometry is out of sync, the whole system throws a fit... and you have a problem.

Take another good look, maybe two, and go slow in you analysis. Try putting your bike on the center stand, so the back wheel isn't "loaded" when you check the system. For the most part, you want to do this without starting the motor... just put the bike on the stand and put it in low gear, rotating the wheel to see if the clutch will completely disengage when moving the pedal further toward the heel down position. Maybe, that will work. If that doesn't help, we'll try something different, eh ? Go slow, be very methodical. document every step, when you do something. Write everything down, so you can go back and find at which step did what... We'll get it figured out sooner than later. Good Luck C2K

p.s. you finally gave me a clue... when you said "the clutch pedal sneaks 'back' barely into the engaged position". thanks, for the "complete" description. every 'detail' matters...

[T. Cotten]

...But I do want it to work properly and stay in position...

I'm really confused, Lipdog!

Do you need it so stiff as to do enduros?
Roads today are such that you don't need to set it 'feathered' to paddle-foot through mud.

Or would you rather be actually able to feel the clutch engage?

(Its a lot more fun that way.)

...Cotten

[Lipdog]

Well, first, I want it to work properly because that’s the way it’s supposed to be. And second, there are times when I’d like to roll to a stop with the bike in first and have the clutch stay disengaged until I decide to engage it. I did this a few times and if I wasn’t watching the clutch would engage itself and stall the bike. It can be a distraction.

[T. Cotten]

Well, first, I want it to work properly because that’s the way it’s supposed to be. And second, there are times when I’d like to roll to a stop with the bike in first and have the clutch stay disengaged until I decide to engage it. I did this a few times and if I wasn’t watching the clutch would engage itself and stall the bike. It can be a distraction.

I don't know how to put this politely, Lipdog...

So sorry in advance.

But you want a crutch not a clutch.

....Cotten

[tomfiii]

Yeah, that's what I have been doing. But I do want it to work properly and stay in position.

Even though I went through the pedal assembly per Mike Tomas at Kiwi and removed the paint on the circular part of the pedal, and installed new friction and metal disks and the correct spring, it's still pretty easy to move the pedal with my hand if the clutch rod is disconnected. I think that could be the problem. Since the nut is already tightened pretty far, I may rough up the metal and friction disks just a bit to see if I can get that to hold better.

It should have resistance with using your foot!

[Skirted]

After never having an issue with my pedal creeping, if it started to act up I would do whatever I had to in order to fix it. It can be a safety hazard otherwise as we all get distracted at times and I don't like having the bike out of gear for a couple reasons. One is if I need to pull out quick unexpectedly and the other is I don't like to do the neutral to 1st clunk any more than necessary. Agree with ChiefTwoKicks to try and make sure the clutch is disengaging fully. Typically if not disengaging fully it will clunk harder going into first from neutral but with nothing for you to compare it to doesn't help.

Certainly won't hurt to rough up that steel plate on the pedal. Either a rotary course sanding disk or if you have access to a media blaster, use aggressive media and higher pressure to give it an even rough finish that will give the disk something to bite to.