1935 Chief resleeve?

[samsmc1]

I have a pair of '35 Chief cylinders that are at .070 OS and have some pitting in the cylinder walls. These cylinders have between .170" to .205" thickness front to rear and on the sides. Over the base mounting holes, they measure around .070" thick. I'm afraid to sleeve these cylinders with the same sleeve I would use on a '40 thru '53 cylinder. Has anyone resleeved a cylinder and installed a smaller than 3.25" piston? I thought to have some pistons made up that were .040 to .060 smaller than standard - has anyone ever resorted to this method of saving an early cylinder?
I also have a problem with recessed valve seats. The ID of the seat hasn't been enlarged. It has only been recessed quite a bit. If I go to a 2 1/8th O.S. valve, the area between the cylinder wall and valve is really close. This engine will probably never get abused but I still want it right. Is inserting valve seats a safe way to reclaim these seats on the early cylinders.
Thanks
Sam

[T. Cotten]

Sam!

You have excellent instincts.
An intact casting will always be stronger than one sleeved to daylight.

Please install some bottom stress plates for a better assessment of the cylinders' final bore, as they distort with fastener stress more the thinner they get.
I forgive pits in favor of 'straight' when assembled.
If you can have pistons/rings made, why light the fuse with sleeves?

Valve seats were never a problem when cast iron seats were available.

Grinding oversize valves down on their OD to fit would once again be the path of least grief.
It will be a lot more rewarding build than just an overhaul..

...Cotten

[hairynob24]

Cotten photo made me sick this happen on my 22 chief ,is it possible to sleeve a sleeve ? going undersize ??? good luck would like to see where you go with this ...

[T. Cotten]

Well, HairyKnob,...

Naturally, it would be best to avoid the disaster in the first place.
The remaining wall thickness over the base flanges can be determined with a simple caliper, by reversing its setting screw.
After setting the points by feel upon the cylinder, the arms can be opened to clear the flange, and closed again for measurement with stacked feeler gauges or whatever.

This will also display if previous bores missed the centerline, as well as 'core float' in the original casting.

Sleeving is to be avoided if at all possible, not only because of the expense to custom-cut a sleeve, and then have it properly installed, but also because it inherently weakens the casting more than one more overbore.
And no sleeve will allow heat transfer like a solid casting. If the bore for the sleeve was not meticulously fine, the barrier is multiplied, and can be disastrous.
A sleeve within a sleeve would add yet another barrier.

Cylinder castings distort more and more with fastener stress the thinner they get.
Cut it super thin, and shove in a sleeve, and the distortion behaves like a circular spring inside of a circular spring.
Even a successfully sleeved back-to-stock cylinder benefits from an applied 'torque plate' for the final fitting for the piston.

So if we stress-fit an un-sleeved cylinder, how much wall left at the thinnest spot is "safe"?
I have an '80s oriental Pan cylinder that ran successfully at .030" overbore, but upon inspection, I noted a discolored area about the size of a rice grain.
My fingernail went right through it.

It is a very bad case of manufacturing core-float, but how could a motor run when the piston skirt was only a few thou away from atmosphere?

I put out several successful motors over the years with .070" remaining at the thinnest point.
Torque-plating is critical when fitting, and installation at that torque as well. I have observed H-D cylinders distort inward as much as three thou at spots, and outward three thou at others. (Indians do not distort as bad because they lack the long spigots.)
Horror stories of running hot and fragging thin cylinders was a result of avoidable friction!

....Cotten

[hairynob24]

Thanks Cotten , i would be looking for another set of barrells for the 35 Chief which is as rare as rocking horse **** , i didnt think you could go out to 70tho on an Indian ,my 22 doesnt get riden as much these days but have a spare set of barrells which took some years to fine 61 cubic blind barrells ??? interested to see what comes of the 35 barrells , i dont know if its worth contacting JD Jugs here in Oz to see if he would do a run of barrells if there is enough interest ,you never know ,Rob

[T. Cotten]

There is little I can add, Hairynob,..

But that my own 334 is blown out to the max, for Badger 'Continental' pistons, yet sits un-assembled and un-tested.

At this rate, it may never get together.

...Cotten
PS: Here's a Chief sleeving that did not survive because of shoddy installation:
The sleeve itself burned, primarily due to horrendous chatter in the casting bore instead of a micro-fine finish.

Or perhaps it was secondary, if there was primarily a vacuum leak.

[tfburke3]

There is little I can add, Hairynob,..

But that my own 334 is blown out to the max, for Badger 'Continental' pistons, yet sits un-assembled and un-tested.

At this rate, it may never get together.

...Cotten
PS: Here's a Chief sleeving that did not survive because of shoddy installation:
The sleeve itself burned, primarily due to horrendous chatter in the casting bore instead of a micro-fine finish.

Or perhaps it was secondary, if there was primarily a vacuum leak.

No experience with sleeves but a lot of piston sets have been on ebay for $20 + and I believe I saw .070's.I have no idea as to quality.
If the valve seats clean up I would probably run them rather attempt inserts,but hard to tell without pic.
Tom

[hairynob24]

i saw on here or CAIF someone showed a youtube clip of a fella in the US using liquid nitrogen to heat the sleeve up than installed by hand on Harleys and has done quite a few ?i was impressed ...would this be better way of installing these sleeves rather than knocking them in ? or it still comes back to the wall thickness left .the guy that does my barrells has always pinned the sleeve not sure about this process ,i have a 46 barrel that broke away from the flange right around and you could see the pins i counted 3 and the brake went through all 3 pins..

[samsmc1]

I have a friend who is way ahead of me in the food chain when it comes to motorcycle machine work. After showing him the cylinders, he recommended and I think I will follow is advise that I take an automotive sleeve and machine it's OD to fit the existing bore after I square up the current cylinder bore and finish hone it. Then install a .100 smaller piston that I can have J&E make up for me. He suggested that I then install new seats before boring the sleeved cylinder to size and fit. He is adamant that the walls of the sleeve be at least .100 " thick to avoid them collapsing or causing hot spots. He is of the opinion that the seats can have shallow areas around them from where the original seats were dished out from previous grinding without damaging what little flow the original ports have to start with. We all agree that the cylinders need to be bolted to torque plates at least on the bottoms prior to honing.
Hairy - we always heat the cylinders up to 300 degrees and freeze the sleeves before installing them. Also in this situation, we'll set the interference at .0015 and use green Locktite so that we don't stress the thin original castings. No pins on anything this thin. I've never pressed a sleeve into a motorcycle cylinder.
Thanks
Sam

[PRG]

Howdy sir,

I may be missing something here but don’t see anyone mentioning hard chroming back to stock (or any size you specify). Though unjustifiable for a 305 Honda a 35 Chief is a completely different proposition and I would never resleeve this rare piece ... or any other equally valuable old machine, that is old technology to be limited to very few situations in light of the superior structurall integrity, heat transfer, longevity and low RA this surface can be honed to.

http://www.usnicom.com/

[T. Cotten]

Its a lot, if not all about heat transfer, Folks!

I'm all with you Sam,.. up to the Loctite anyway.

There were a lot of vintage successes in spite of the modern failures.
So if your boremeister can produce a slick plateau finish (while stressed) within the casting, and a polish on the sleeve, then it should conduct and survive even better...

I'm all for undersized pistons if it keeps a Historical casting in service. (Balancing is a micro-issue.)
But I would still stress with a torque-plate the final hone-fit at very least.
(My Chief plates are magnesium printers' plate so I could lift it all. And that was then.)

The traditional "press" for any auto or motorcycle cylinder I have encountered was only ~.0015" (ignoring those forsaken two-strokes).
My schooling was that the length of the sleeve secured it naturally, while the press was to assure heat-transfer contact.
A lighter press interference would be helpful with an ancient crystallized casting, so indeed if there were such a goober that would improve heat transfer as well as add security, then it would come down to application technique.

'Silver-Seal Seal-Lock Fluid-Weld' does that on valve seats and guides; Sorry my two-decade-old link died somehow.
For all I know, Permatex has the same thing in a bottle. Maybe.

On to Peter's Nicosil suggestion,..
It was last decade (or two already), but apparently problems arose blamed upon high sulphur fuels and other things, as well as its a wallet-thinner.
Fuels are constantly changing. Wonder what the "Summer Blend" will be like this year Folks!

...Cotten
PS: The top plate only proved it futile for a flatty.

[TechNoir]

This same topic has been discussed recently on another forum that I am on. Someone has suggested that using something called Seallock International Fluid Weld as a medium for pressing and that it is a substance developed for use on the space shuttle and improves heat transfer between liner and cylinder.

I have no idea if this is correct and I have no experience of using it but I just thought I would throw it out there as I noticed Cottens comment that its mostly about heat transfer and I remembered a similar comment in the other forum.

John

[T. Cotten]

The real advantage of Seal-Lock Fluid-Weld, Folks,..

Is its chemical bond ("cross-links") with metals.

I first encountered it in the mid-'80s for pinning cracks in cast iron castings, but my bottle says "retains and cools valve seat inserts, valve guides & cylinder sleeves". (!)
"Nonflammable"; "Nontoxic"; "Withstands temperatures to 3000ºF"
"Seal-Lock International, Dresher PA 19025; Catalog number 30333"

T'aint cheap.

....Cotten

[samsmc1]

Cotten - you went past me on the locktite. We always set the interference at .0035 on modern engines with aluminum cylinder blocks without any locktite or pinning the new liner. I wouldn't even consider trying to pin the liners is an old Indian for fear of weakening the cylinder base after setting the interference at .0015., therefore it would seem that for saftey's sake, some locktite would be necessary. I fully understand the need for a fine finish on the sleeve and cylinder bore for heat transfer, but isn't securing the sleeve chemically just being cautious?
I have another question concerning Indian cylinders - I'm getting the pieces together to build stock appearing '51 chief. I have a set of cylinders that I purchased from Eastern 7 or 8 years ago. I didn't use them on the '48 that I'm restoring right now because they were crappy looking on one side where the fins aren't right. Other than appearance, have you ever heard of any problems with these cylinders? I want to bump up the power with better cams, carb, and ignition. I plan on using Carrillo type rods and new flywheels. I don't want this thing coming apart. Any advise on this?
Thanks
Sam

[billpedalino]

I used Seal-Lock Fluid Weld when replacing my knucklehead valve seats. Very good stuff. And Cotten's correct - very expensive.

The real advantage of Seal-Lock Fluid-Weld, Folks,..

Is its chemical bond ("cross-links") with metals.

I first encountered it in the mid-'80s for pinning cracks in cast iron castings, but my bottle says "retains and cools valve seat inserts, valve guides & cylinder sleeves". (!)
"Nonflammable"; "Nontoxic"; "Withstands temperatures to 3000ºF"
"Seal-Lock International, Dresher PA 19025; Catalog number 30333"

T'aint cheap.

....Cotten