Synthetic oil

[Steve Swan]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19905[/ATTACH] Is this the oil?

yup, that's the stuff.

20170604_144409.jpg

[RonH]

yup, that's the stuff.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19906[/ATTACH]

How do you like it?

[Steve Swan]

How do you like it?

Ron, i've only ran my 27JD about 50 miles using the Phillips Aviation oil. really don't think that's enough miles to give a substantive report. on the other hand, before i ran my JD, i asked the "oil question" on JD Yahoo Groups and our board here. Aviation oil seemed to get the most recommendations. And, if Tom Cotten recommends it, that's as good a recommendation as i feel i could have.

[T. Cotten]

Steve!

Its expensive, but you might consider an additive such as http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html.
(There seems to be several on the market..)

Hopefully you would still have the benefits of a basically ash-less oil, with the extra cushion of zinc.

When a few drops of an ashless oil (such as Aeroshell, the only one I tested) is gently cooked on a Pyrex plate with a propane torch, it bubbles, lets off some white fumes, and volatilizes to leave next to no residue.
An ordinary oil, however, produces noxious black smoke, and leaves significant tarry residue. With extended heat, it becomes quite hard, and will not wash off with spirits.

The advantage of an ashless oil for a total-loss machine, particularly when much of it is past the rings, is obvious.
So it would be interesting to know if the ZDDP additive would produce noticeable residue when proportioned into an ashless oil.

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Steve!

Its expensive, but you might consider an additive such as http://www.eastwood.com/ew-zddp-oil-additive-4-oz.html.
(There seems to be several on the market..)

Hopefully you would still have the benefits of a basically ash-less oil, with the extra cushion of zinc.

When a few drops of an ashless oil (such as Aeroshell, the only one I tested) is gently cooked on a Pyrex plate with a propane torch, it bubbles, lets off some white fumes, and volatilizes to leave next to no residue.
An ordinary oil, however, produces noxious black smoke, and leaves significant tarry residue. With extended heat, it becomes quite hard, and will not wash off with spirits.

The advantage of an ashless oil for a total-loss machine, particularly when much of it is past the rings, is obvious.
So it would be interesting to know if the ZDDP additive would produce noticeable residue when proportioned into an ashless oil.

....Cotten

Tom, THANK YOU ! great info to know on ashless dispersant oil ! Would one run the same pyrex/hot plate test on ZDDP to test for residue ? Do you feel a zinc additive is something a JD engine needs ?

and....... keep your eye open for a surprise coming via Fedex, Thursday, thereabouts !

[T. Cotten]

As I posted, Steve,

It would be an interesting experiment at suggested levels, although qualitative, and not quantitative.

ZDDP can't hurt, unless too much attacks bronze bushings, produces hard carbon, etc.
We won't know unless we investigate. Conjecture just leads to even longer oil threads.
(Since its "Summer blend" time, what little "free" R&D time I have will be to replicate my annual fuel immersion tests. And I'm far behind at that.)

I'll alert the dog to watch for the FedEx; They come at odd hours! Thanks!

....Cotten
PS: Pyrex has gotten scarce in the dumpsters lately, so if anyone tries common glass plate, please heat it extremely slowly, outside in a safe place, and with proper eyegear, etc.
(I miss my USDA fume hoods. I guess the renown research facility, where I served for seven years or so, is doomed to Federal cuts. Since it now borders an urban gang "war zone",.. might as well make it a prison. It could be a good one.)
PPS: Good Gawd! I just priced Pyrex watch glasses at Fisher Scientific. I guess I better clean mine up, and wrap them in velvet.

PPPS: Since it would be courteous to return to "topic", Folks,...

I really must ask: If one does not really expect to run thousands of miles without a change (or it exits as often it will, particularly for a total-loss machine), where is the sense in spending SO much more for an "extra high mileage" oil?

The priority is clean oil, and lots of it. Everything else is secondary.

....Cotten

[D.A.Bagin]

I am far from an expert on oils or anything else, however, I do know when to ask the "Experts" when the time comes.

When I acquired my 440 about 6-7 years ago, it had and unknown history as to motor rebuilds and owners etc. Needless to say I was a little concerned when the time came to initially get the puppy running for the first time after sitting for an unknown amount of time. At a minimum it sat for 4-7 years. Since I live in an area where there are farmers and home schooled mechanics I would have conversations at the local coffee stop on Sundays relative to tractors, old cars, etc. they referred me to a local representative for Cen-Pe-Co Oil company out of Ohio. I sat with him after doing whatever research I could do as far as ZDDP and other additives for flat tappet motors such as Ford model T's, tractors and other farm machinery. We came up with a blend of oil that they specifically made for me. I did have to purchase a bit of it but they would make whatever I wanted. They ended up making me straight non-detergent 40 and 50 wt. oils in 5gal steel cans with the proper amounts of ZDDP as was specified from me. It has worked out perfect ever since. I change my oil every 5-700 miles and couldn't be happier.

If you know what you want as far as blends, check out this company. They seem to be very helpful and like to work with the small guy as well as the big guy. After looking them up, it seems they are heavily involved in tractor pulls and such, where they have a few thousand horsepower they are dealing with.

[T. Cotten]

My local barge company used to use it, D.A!

.....Cotten

[Coolbreeze]

my experience - a few years back i resurrected an unmolested low mileage 1971 Honda CB750. i ran conventional 20/50 Castrol in it for about 500 miles to flush out the cases. as ii were, there was a very small weep at the cyl/head joint which is not uncommon for these models. a friend who is an Amsoil dealer talked me in to trying amsoil at the change. within 50 miles, the weep at the joint was a LEAK. and in a few other areas around engine cases weeps and seeps were cropping up that were not there during the previous 500 miles.

fwiw, i'm running 50w Shell Aviation non-detergent ashless dispersant in my JD. it's readily available and not expensive.

In 1967 or '68 or so, I was riding a H-D KHK and was buying a fair amount of parts from Hank Reiman, Roger's dad. I was also flying Cessna 150s in Air Force ROTC pilot training. I told Hank I bought a case of Mobil 50W aviation oil (ashless) for use in the bike. Hank told me I had it backwards. He said he ran H-D oil in his Cessna because it was a superior oil. He was probably right because most air cooled motorcycle engines are harder on oil than most aircraft engines. To this day, I stay away from aircraft engine oil and stay with motorcycle blends for my Harleys and Indians. Well, I do use Valoline racing oil in the Indian 841, but that engine runs a bit cooler than the other bikes.

[T. Cotten]

In 1967 or '68 or so, I was riding a H-D KHK and was buying a fair amount of parts from Hank Reiman, Roger's dad. I was also flying Cessna 150s in Air Force ROTC pilot training. I told Hank I bought a case of Mobil 50W aviation oil (ashless) for use in the bike. Hank told me I had it backwards. He said he ran H-D oil in his Cessna because it was a superior oil. He was probably right because most air cooled motorcycle engines are harder on oil than most aircraft engines. To this day, I stay away from aircraft engine oil and stay with motorcycle blends for my Harleys and Indians. Well, I do use Valoline racing oil in the Indian 841, but that engine runs a bit cooler than the other bikes.

George!

Please note that I endorsed ashless oil for total-loss machines.

(It also noticeably benefited a "total loss" warhorse Panhead with hack I punished in the '80s: On an out-of-state run, I encountered some at a road stop, stocked up, and it reduced consumption dramatically, perhaps by a third. Returning to conventional oil resumed its typically excessive consumption. Anecdotal, I know, but it made a believer out of me!)

....Cotten
PS: Did you ever attend any of the Reimans' festivities after one of their sponsored runs?
I shall never forget an evening of sitting on haybales watching a huge screen with Hank's incredible hillclimb footage, some of it in color. Got a flat on the way to the run, and my wife (at the time) had to hitch in to get an airbottle as I flipped in a tube out of the saddlebag. We were far behind, but Roger was sitting at a signpost sipping drinks with his XLCR, waiting to make sure we didn't miss the turn.
I'd guess that was about 1975...?

[T. Cotten]

....... keep your eye open for a surprise coming via Fedex, Thursday, thereabouts !

Steve!

I would have been delighted with an empty can!

Many thanks, and please look me up at Davenport if you can...

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Steve!

I would have been delighted with an empty can!

Many thanks, and please look me up at Davenport if you can...

....Cotten

empty cans aren't as fun as full cans !!!!! and you only deserve the best.

yeah, i need to get off my ass and go to Davenport. i was a regular attendee in the 70's and 80's. would be nice if i could go this year. this summer, between cataract surgeries, helping my son with his business, pitting his racing season, trying to finish work in my shop before i go back to school and other stuff, we'll see..... i DEFINITELY want to meet some of the people who have been so helpful in bringing my JD to life.

[Steve Swan]

fwiw, we've a similar thread on ashless dispersant oil going on caimag, here is what i just posted over there.....


Quote Originally Posted by harleytoprock
I've been using Harley Davidson 60 wt in my JD. What would be the advantages if I used the aviation oil mentioned above. I change the oil very often and never exceed 150 miles between changes. I change it often as there is only 6 to 8 oz of oil inside, that the motor is relying on for good lube.


my reply

i don't know anything about H-D oil.

my understanding of ashless dispersant, it holds contaminants in suspension and darkens more quickly than non-a.d. oil. (info i'm posting comes from sifting through information on the internet. of most websites i have perused, this one seems the most objective and easy to understand, perfect for newbie to total loss system such as myself.) http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueja02/Hangar7802.html (again, my decision to use a.d. oil was influenced by general concensus of other J/JD owners.)

my understanding of the a.d. is to prevent corrosion on rotating surfaces and suspend build up of deposits from engine operation, such as dirt, metallic wear and products of combustion. oil appears dirty at oil change because the a.d. is doing it's job. in a total loss lubrication system with no filtering system, oil changes should be frequent. (oil changes in an unfiltered system should be twice as often as a filtered system.) detergents are not added to aviation oil.

the cut/paste below, directly from the above web link gives a nice explanation of the terms ashless and dispersant.....

• ASHLESS refers to non-metallic additives. Detergents, on the other hand, are metallic by nature. Detergents may scrub existing ash deposits from an engine’s interior surfaces, which will contribute to the ash content, and possible clogging, of the oil.
• DISPERSANT refers to the oil’s ability to suspend combustion by-products, keeping them dispersed until the oil is drained.
Because they suspend engine by-products, AD oils darken faster than non-AD oils. This is a sign that the oil is preventing by-products from solidifying on interior engine surfaces. All AD aviation oils contain oxidation inhibitors as part of their standard additive chemistry. AD oils will not dislodge quantities of sludge from interior engine surfaces that lead to restricted oil screens. AD oils do not add deposit build-up. Instead, they help dissipate existing by-products over time. For example, if an operator uses a non-AD oil for 500 hours, then switches to an oil with an AD package for 500 hours, the AD oil will not "clean out" the first 500 hours worth of engine deposits.

[T. Cotten]

Steve!

I'm really clueless about Js, so I gotta ask:
Do they return oil to the tank, or just dribble in like some other total-loss machines?

Thanks in advance as always,...

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Steve!

I'm really clueless about Js, so I gotta ask:
Do they return oil to the tank, or just dribble in like some other total-loss machines?

Thanks in advance as always,...

....Cotten

yes, total loss, vents from top of cam gear cavity via a pipe that runs to the primary chain. i believe similar in design to the VL ?? the J/JD models have a mechanical oiler that drives off the oiler drive gear in the cam gear case. The mechanical oiler regulates the gravity flow from the oil tank. (there is a ball check valve at bottom of tank that keeps the oil in tank from draining in to the crankcase cavity.)

The mechanical oiler's rate of flow is adjusted by 4 washers, one thick (.065") and three thin (.013") Removing washers decreases oil flow. the Rider's Handbook recommends running all 4 washers on a new engine. removing one thin washer decreases oil flow by 75 mpg. The Handbook suggests removing one or 2 thin washers for Summer service. there also is a hand pump atop the tank which the rider can manually operates for steep grades or sidecar work. i only write all this as a means to impress into my brain to keep fresh information i read from the factory literature.

i have not ridden my bike enough to know the quantity of oil remaining in the crankcase after a sustained ride of any considerable mileage. since my engine is all new, i have been draining the crankcase after every ride. The oil was only really dark the one time i was able to ride the bike 35 miles last Fall. otherwise, the oil still has color to it after short 5 mile rides. this fall i am going east of town 45 miles to a remote area where i can put some sustained mileage at varying speeds on the engine.

anyway, more than you asked for, but i try to think through everything i say or plan to do before i do it.