Comments on this '46 Chief Please.

[Tobydog61]

I continue to look for a Chief and am wondering if I could get comments on this '46 that appeared on ebay. I don't see much that is wrong other than the restorer polished the engine cases, yuck, and powder coated the frame and front end. Again, I would prefer a bike that I could get judged and I see in the rules that powder coat is acceptable as long as it is similar to the factory finish. This one looks quite glossy. I have pics of the serial number and it looks good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121785171330...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks

Jeff

[tfburke3]

I continue to look for a Chief and am wondering if I could get comments on this '46 that appeared on ebay. I don't see much that is wrong other than the restorer polished the engine cases, yuck, and powder coated the frame and front end. Again, I would prefer a bike that I could get judged and I see in the rules that powder coat is acceptable as long as it is similar to the factory finish. This one looks quite glossy. I have pics of the serial number and it looks good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121785171330...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Thanks

Jeff

Right side engine case looks like 1947 style with square boss under the pushrod guides rather than wavy .Maybe very late 46?
Tom

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
When you say the numbers look good, do you really know what you are looking at? In 1946, there was a major number change around CDF1000 and another around CDF5000. If you really want to know what is 'good' either post the engine and or frame numbers on this or one of the other forums, or you can send it to me for an analysis. My Indian engine/frame number photo collection consists of over 600 different engines/frames for the Springfield production run. My analysis consists of scrutinizing the number in question, and replies consist of several believed correct engine and/or frame numbers on both sides of the number in question in addition to the text result of the analysis. If you know of somebody with a more complete collection of engine/frame numbers, you can always send the photos to them for their analysis. I can be reached through the private messenger or at baiste@sgu.edu Sincerely, Steven Bailey, Yellow53Chief on the forums, 567ste on eBay.

[Tobydog61]

Steve - Thank you, you are correct I am an amateur so appreciate your input. I have a good pic of the engine VIN. The frame pic I got is very fuzzy and I am trying to get a better one.



What do you think?

Thanks

Jeff

[pisten-bully]

Jeff, just so you know, here's a few more observations after a quick look at the listing: wrong seat, the front brake arm and cable end is 1947 style, the horn appears to be a 1948 style, the exhaust is 1947 style, the ammeter maybe should be the slanted needle type(with the later serial number you've shown... not certain when the changeover happened, that one appears to be a reproduction by the looks of the needle ), I don't know about hat extra hole in the chain guard, you see them on other bikes but most often there is only a single oiler hole on top, gas caps aren't original but oil cap looks good, spark advance cable on the distributor is wrong for '46, battery frog should be black, tool box lock should be red, rear fender braces should be black (but then there's so much extra chrome on the bike, too!), ... geez, listen to me! Sorry, it's actually a very nice bike!

[Skirted]

Looks like grease fittings on the girder links. Didn't that start in 48?

Fuzzy pic of frame VIN not acceptable. Makes you wonder: Potential buyer requests VIN pics to verify originality assuming a $25k plus machine. Seller sends pic you can't read. Sending a fuzzy pic is like none at all.

Once cases are polished you can't go back to that original cast look. You can bead blast them to dull up a bit but it will never look like factory cast. If a high scoring machine is one of your goals, you'll be spending a LOT of money and time getting this one to that level. It has great curb appeal if judging or originality wasn't a concern.

[Green Indian]

If you want a really sharp OP Indian this one's really nice. Remember most bikes to pass AMCA judging will need further refinement from what you find and can buy on ebay. There are a lot of nicely restored ones out there but very few seem to make it to ebay correctly restored to AMCA standards. That takes a certain level of obsession and expense that most ebay bikes don't seem to have lately.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151845334656...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[pisten-bully]

If you want a really sharp OP Indian this one's really nice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151845334656...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Right! That bike was talked about a lot on this forum:http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...-in-the-Stable

Too bad he has to sell it.

[Green Indian]

Right! That bike was talked about a lot on this forum:http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...-in-the-Stable

Too bad he has to sell it.

Yes, it is. I'm wondering why, after just one year of ownership, he's selling something that's been in his family since new? Must need the $$ which is too bad, he'll never find another one in that condition with such a documented history (his own family) again.

[Tobydog61]

This is yet another eBay bike that is interesting but strange. Someone goes to the trouble many years ago to restore a bike but never drives it. Serial number shows the B not with the usual letter style. Could you please comment on this bike as well? I see wires hanging in strange places and some other issues.


http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/301767354578

1947 Indian Chief

[pisten-bully]

Tobydog, don't take this the wrong way please, but if you don't have a copy of Jerry Hatfield's Indian Restoration Guide then you should get one. It's a pretty thorough book on what to look for. There's other resources out there too, and while I don't think getting comments from this forum is a bad thing it's also not very effective or expedient to rely on this fairly sleepy forum to help you make a buy decision!

Having said that, the red Chief looks good! Pictures are small and low quality, but I think the wires you refer to are because the battery has been removed.

[Green Indian]

I'm no Indian VIN expert so I will defer to others (the "B" does look a bit close to the pad) but the bike is solid enough to enjoy as is and then take the time to correct it to AMCA standards if you want. As to why there's no mileage on the bike, many folks restore them and simply display them and when they grow tired of looking at them they sell them. If it's at all possible I'd go and see it in person. I've driven hundreds of miles to see ebay bikes to make sure I knew what I was bidding on.

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
This thread is jumping around a bit, but in general the comments about the 1946 Chief CDF3977 are spot-on. Especially the comment about the polished cases. The original finish cannot be restored. To me, the polished cases puts this bike into a 'custom' class. Not that being custom is bad - hey, I had a nice custom Indian once, but if the goal is a restoration, polished cases are a no-no. As far as a fuzzy frame photo goes; I agree that any fuzzy photo is a very bad sign. Good frame numbers are notoriously difficult to get due to rust, paint, road-rash, etc. but with some effort they can be obtained. For comments about any particular Indian, the Classic American Iron (CAI) forum is very good. There is a large group of dedicated enthusiasts there. The bottom line on the CDF3977 stamping is that it appears to be factory original. The placement of the 'B' is not unusual, as there was no pad to put it on and variations in its placement are common. I see nothing wrong with the 'B' size, style, or placement. I cannot put all of my photo examples in this reply, so there will be several replies after this one and they will include examples of the three types of 1946 Chief engine numbers. There is the 101-1000 (approximately) style, the 1001-5000 (approximately) style, and the 5000-7100 (approximately) style. I will add one frame photo here and this is 3464377. This number is in the second series of 1946 numbers and is proper. In general the serial number portion of the frame number should be an exact match to the engine serial number portion. Not only exact in the number, but in the digit size and style. Variations here almost always point to either the frame or engine being a restamp. 1946 Chief 3464377.jpg

[Yellow53Chief]

Should a claim of ‘matching numbers’ be taken at face value? Absolutely not. All numbers; both engine and frame have to be scrutinized to determine if they are actually factory stampings or not. As the value of Indians has increased (especially those with factory original ‘matching numbers’), so has the temptation to alter/modify/restamp existing numbers in order to make them appear to be ‘matching’. Luckily most such number alterations are easily detectable to someone who has a large supply of photographs of other numbers in the sequential area of production.
What I often find is that a machine has been sold with a claim of ‘matching numbers’ and then when the bike is resold, the seller claims ‘matching numbers’ as that is what he was told when he first bought the bike. Unfortunately, either the engine or frame was restamped (poorly), and not only is the machine actually not ‘matching numbers’ but it is really a machine that has altered numbers. Value-wise, a machine is best left with non-matching numbers than with a botched restamp job. How many restamped engines and/or frames are out there? From my investigations, I put the number at 10% of all machines have issues with either the engine or frame numbers. Could some of these issues be very old and created by Indian dealers back in the day? Yes, but however they got there, they are there and they have a negative influence on value. Not less value as a machine that can be driven, but less value as a machine that can sometimes be seen as in investment to be resold at a profit.
What to do? If considering an Indian to purchase, get good photographs of the engine/frame numbers and have them analyzed. Only the very best forgery will escape detection. As far as the frame goes, it has to be remembered that Indian did not consistently put frame numbers on their bikes until approximately 1931.

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
Here are four examples of the first style of 1946 engine numbers. Some of the digits changed for the three types of the 1946 numbers, but the 'CDF' portion was consistent for the entire year. The most distinctive feature of first series of digits is that they have no 'serifs', which are the stylized flourishes that are sometimes in the beginning or ending of a digit stroke. The digit '1' does have a short horizontal header and a longer horizontal footer. The battery ignition 'B' that is to the right of the number pad is also unusual in the first batch of 1946 numbers as the 'B' is quite plain without any horizontal header or horizontal footer flourishes. The second and third types of 1946 engine stampings have a 'B' with a short horizontal header and footer. This style was used from CDF101 through CDF1000 (approximately).

1946 Chief CDF174.jpg1946 Chief CDF485.JPG1946 Chief CDF566.jpg1946 Chief CDF910.jpg