Chief Starting Procedure - Question

[Skirted]

After 3 years owning my 48 the textbook method of 2 prime kicks with key off, then key on works every time on cold starts. Warm/hot starts are first kick key on, 1/2 throttle and it starts every time. Always an easy starting bike. This is my only bike so I keep it well maintained and tuned.

The only rare occasion where I have a problem is when I misjudge engine temp after bike has been sitting for 45 minutes to an hour and think its OK for a hot start. This happened Sunday after breakfast at a restaurant. Of course it was with an unusually large number of patrons who wanted to watch the old bike start. I always feel the front cylinder to see if its still warm and this time it had just slight warmth and I didn't want to risk flooding so went the hot start way. After I tried hot start method and it didn't start I was SOL. When this happened in past usually a fully open throttle will get it going after 3 kicks but not always and not this time. From hero to zero I went and I never want this to happen again.

So my question is; What exactly is happening in the combustion chamber that causes this phenomenon? Why once you fail to use the proper procedure is it such an SOB to start and going backward and starting over using the correct procedure doesn't work. Why does having the key on or off make so much difference?

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
You don't say, but I'm guessing that you are running a Linkert carburetor. The hot start problem that an Indian has is not so much related to the combustion chamber as it is related to the carburetor. The typical situation is that the carburetor works fine when the engine is cold, or when is it is hot - the hot that happens just a few minutes after the engine is stopped. When the engine sits for 15 to 20 minutes, up to 45 minutes to an hour after the engine is stopped; the engine is neither totally cold or totally hot - and often the engine will not start no matter what you do (except for maybe a bump-start on a long downward hill). This issue has been discussed at great length in many of the forums for many years, and often a satisfactory solution is still elusive. Some claim that the fuel in the float bowl boils - flooding the engine with fuel vapors. Some claim that the idle circuit has trouble pulling fuel when the carburetor is hot - possibly due to gas bubbles forming in the idle circuit. What to do? I had similar hot start issues with a Linkert and my solution was to switch to a Keihin carburetor. Though not perfect, it is far superior to the Linkert and is also designed to work with 10% ethanol in the gasoline. Hopefully somebody will respond with a definitive Linkert 'fix'.
As far as having the key on or off; the idea is to have the engine primed with fuel in both cylinders before ignition is supplied; this requires that the key be left 'off' during the first couple of kicks. With the engine primed with fuel and the key then turned 'on'; the engine has a good chance of actually starting. The kicking stroke to start the engine does not work well, if the kick is feeble. The kick must be vigorous. Some 'kicking' techniques work better than others.
Indians tend to be individualistic, and what works for one might not work for another. For a partial discussion of carburetor issues, it is worth checking out: performanceindian.com

[Skirted]

Thanks Yellow53. At least some comfort knowing I am not alone. It is a Linkert. I would have liked to have pulled a plug after the first or second kick. Guessing it would have been too wet? Ironically since you mentioned it I reluctantly accepted a push from an HD guy and a BMW guy who were among the spectators and that's how it finally started.

[Inchief]

Yea but how come the only time it won't start is when there are a bunch of people watching!

[stan]

I had to look to see if it was my name on the post. My 47 does the same thing. I hesitate riding it much anymore just because of the hot starting . It never fails when there is a crowd wanting to see this machine run it, doesn't. My kicker doesn't engage until about 2/3 of the way down on the kick stroke, every thing is stock. It seams like the kick arm could use a few more teeth to engage sooner. My best success on a hot start is throttle wide open. Because of my knee problem I have been looking into a electric start. They are rather pricy, it will be a while for that to happen. Stan

[stan]

Wow, after reading a lower post I see a 50 chief kicker does have more teeth. I am looking into that. Stan

[fillibuster]

qu: " My kicker doesn't engage until about 2/3 of the way down on the kick stroke, "

Have to ask: are we bringing the engine to a compression stroke before we kick the hell out of it?
When I think the engine is only warm I will usually give it half throttle and give it a vigorous kick (no choke). If it takes off I look good. If it doesn't it needs a drink, and I shut off and prime with full choke one kick. Then set choke at 1/4 and kick to start.


want to see me flunk come to St Paul next weekend.

[pisten-bully]

When I think the engine is only warm I will usually give it half throttle and give it a vigorous kick (no choke). If it takes off I look good. If it doesn't it needs a drink, and I shut off and prime with full choke one kick. Then set choke at 1/4 and kick to

Hey, I could've written that, too. Most times the half throttle/no choke produces fire for mine....otherwise a primer kick is needed.

And I think Yellow53 mentioned something about Indians being individualistic, and I can attest to that as I ride frequently with someone riding a '41.....we go about our starting procedures in two different ways.

Full disclosure....I put on a kicker arm I bought from Greer that has the extra teeth and is slightly longer (after buggering up my ankle one summer) and I've convinced myself it was money well spent!

[Temple]

I think the crowd of people is the issue. Tell them all to go away and then kick her over.

[tomfiii]

If the kickstand lets it lean over too far ,that also will cause a problem.

[fillibuster]

I want to emphasis the primer kick for just a second, because I haven't seen it recognized.
To me, a primer kick is noticeably different from a starting kick. The crowd will notice that vigorous kick that fails to start, but the crowd will acknowledge your "savvy" if you subtly PUSH the kicker through to find that compression stroke, then turn on the ignition and kick to start.
Some "given"'s are not so given, they have to be earned.

[D.A.Bagin]

I have earned a bruised shin every time it hits the sidecar frame. Man it hurts just thinking about it. Hot starts are an issue. It will start on one kick or 20. You just don't know.

[Rodger Brandstatter]

This discussion is very interesting to me as I just completed the restoration on a 46 Chief this spring. The engine has been all rebuilt and everything is fresh. I was having some trouble starting the engine, and decided it something to do with me not the bike. I installed a longer 52-53 crank (reproduction) and this made all the difference in the world. I started the thread in this section about the longer crank. As far as starting procedure goes, I have found the one that works best for my Chief (stock Linkert carb) is the factory method from the 46-47 owners manual. The first prime kick is with full choke and full throttle. the 2nd prime kick is one click up on the choke (3/4 choke) and no throttle. Then, key on, 1/2 retard on the spark, 3/4 choke, and slight throttle. With a strong kick, it fires right up. A good friend of mine has several Chiefs and his Dad been an Indian dealer dealer in the 40s and 50s. Their method is somewhat different than the factory recommended. It is 2 prime kicks with full choke and slight throttle. Then, key on, half retard, only 1/4 choke, and slight throttle. This was the method I had been trying initially before installing the longer crank. My Chief just seems to like the factory method better (more choke on the money kick). When warm, their procedure is try 1 kick with slight throttle and 1/2 retard. If it doesn't fire, try 1 more kick with 1/2 throttle and 1/2 retard. If it doesn't start (probably from cooling off too long), go back to prime kicks. The Kiwi cold starting method from Mike Tomas's Indian owner's is to start kicking with the key on, manual ist

[Rodger Brandstatter]

Woops- auto-save dropped part of my previous post. As I was saying, the Kiwi cold starting method is to start kicking with the key on, 3/4 choke, full retard, and 1/4 throttle. He refers to this as the "foolproof method" that keeps the engine from getting flooded. Another friend of mine has a 48 Chief that he cold starts using 1 prime kick with full choke, then 2 "air" kicks with no choke and no throttle, then a money kick with 1/4 choke. I had never heard of the "air" kick method, but he said he has several vintage Harleys that he also starts this way. I guess it just goes to show that what works for one bike doesn't necessarily work as well for another. I would be interested to hear Tom Cotten's views on this subject as he is carburetor specialist/expert.

[T. Cotten]

Golly Rodger,...

If there are absolutely no vacuum leaks, and everything else is in order, I have never had problems starting cold Chiefs and Scouts the same way I started Milwaukee machines:
A kick or two open throttle-choke closed, open it up and just crack the throttle, half-retard, turn on the key, and boot. Advance when successful.

If if it starts second or third kick, those were the "air kicks".

.....Cotten
PS: Machines always start best when nobody is watching.