Newby - Seeking Mentor On Purchasing a 46-48 Chief

[Skirted]

Newby here and to the AMCA so please bear with me.
A little background - While I have been actively involved for many years on the AACA and other classic car forums assisting the less experienced in auto restoration, I now must become the trainee.

I've never owned an antique motorcycle and don't know anyone in my area who in knowledgeable on late 40s chiefs. I've never even seen an old Indian on the road or at a show in my area. My wife and I had dreams of owning a Chief and have been looking at every internet advertised Chief for the past couple years and have collected a host of pictures for reference as well as getting educated on engine and frame numbers, correctness, problem areas etc, but the more I learn the more I realize there is no substitute for experience when buying one of these.

I've finally reached the point where I'm ready to make a purchase when I find the right bike.

Is there anyone who would be willing to assist me with advice and wisdom in the purchase of a bike? Here are some of my thoughts so far on what to look for. Tell me if I'm on the right track.
1. Buy a matching number machine for best investment potential. Though non matching numbers bikes would be considered if the price was right. Matching numbers doesn't seem to affect price too much as long as parts are from same era???
2. Buy a machine with original sheet metal as well as many other original parts possible.
3. Spend more money up front for a better machine vs a project since my expereince in rebuilding cars is of little value in this arena.
3a. Or buy a rider and restore myself so I know its done right.

One issue I'm struggling with is the temptation to buy a bike that is complete and is a rider but needs some work in order to keep the up front purchase cost down. Even these bikes seem to be in the $15k range though. I am concerned since I have no Indian engine or trans rebuild experience or parts sources I'd end up spending more to restore it, plus lots of frustration, mistakes, etc than if spent another min 10k up front to get something already done. It seems there are alot of little tricks that if done properly during rebuild will make these bike very reliable.
The flip side is just because a bike is supposedly "restored" doesn't mean it was done right and I could end up paying more for a perceived turn-key bike that may have had some corners cut. Buying something with a tired drivetrain in need of rebuild would allow me to control how it was rebuilt better guarenteeing the outcome.

Appreciate any advice offered.

Jason Z
Near Pittsburgh PA

[sirhrmechanic]

Take a roadtrip to Harrisburg, PA and visit Bob's Indian Sales in Lewisberry (just south of the city.)

He has bikes for sale, but his is also a first rate mechanical shop. And he is a character. It will be a hands-on education. And they can talk to you about costs and what can be involved.

One thing to keep in mind is that an 'older' restoration that is regularly ridden and nicely fettled, but is not 'concours' by today's standards can be the best deal out there. Look for a bike that has been with the same owner for many years. An owner who is more interested in a good home for his pride and joy that in getting every last dime out of you. If you accept some non-originality and some road miles, you will likely get a great machine.

Just some thoughts... remember, too, that while you may WANT an Indian. You don't need one. That is good, because it gives you lots of time to find the right bike. It's not like getting a car to get to work. You can take all the time in the world to find the right machine. And the right seller. Done right, you will get a good bike and make a great friend. Sounds like, so far, you are doing it right.

Places to avoid... auctions (where people dump machines with no comebacks) and Toy Store type dealers like Hyman Ltd (snakes) or the St. Louis Car Museum, etc. These folks are lower than whale turds. Pimped junk for the most part.

One place to look actively is eBay. Just because the bike is for sale there does NOT mean you have to bid on it. Contact the seller. Get in touch and talk. If the bike does not sell, go LOOK at it. Spend some time doing some road trips. A Chief is a big investment. Don't buy sight unseen. If you end up taking a couple of road trips, look at them as an adventure and a chance to have some fun. They will cost you a lot less than having a dog pushed off a semi-trailer. Pittsburgh puts you in perfect position to get almost anywhere on the East Coast in a weekend. So look at machines in a radius that gets you there in a day and back in a day. eBay exposes you to a LOT of bikes and a lot of sellers. Some great, some no so much. But it costs nothing to ask a question or get a dialog going.

BTW, I am also looking for a Chief. So please don't use these techniques or thoughts to buy a nice Chief before I get it. Just 'sayin.

Cheers,

Sirhr

www.vintagegaragevt.com

[D.A.Bagin]

Get involved in the club. Join a local chapter, if there is one, and if possible go to a few meets and gain as much knowledge as you can before you make any decision on a bike. There is one coming up in Jefferson PA.outside York, in the beginning of Oct. Take your time in making a decision on the bike you purchase as it can be a lifetime of fun or regret and as you know the same thing happens in the car scene. Decide if you want a rider or a correct machine that you will have judged. Indians are usually less expensive than the same year Harleys, other than a few choice models and years, and provide just as much seat of the pants fun. Enjoy the search as much as the aquisition and you should be fine.

[c.o.]

Jason, you've been given some very good advice here already. Definitely head to Bob's Indian Sales!!! You will also find that most folks in this club are more than happy to point you in the "right" direction. Educate yourself and ask questions!!! The "real" Indian company has been dead for many years but there is a network around the marque today that is absolutely amazing. Don't rush into it and you will be happier in the end for it. Best of luck on finding the right bike for you.

[Skirted]

Thanks for the good replies. Can anyone give me a ballpark number on the cost of an engine and transmission rebuild done by a professional. Just like a car engine, I understand much depends on the existing condition and what I want done. Assume an average stock rebuild of a running but tired drivetrain and including known upgrades to improve reliability.

Thanks

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks for the good replies. Can anyone give me a ballpark number on the cost of an engine and transmission rebuild done by a professional. Just like a car engine, I understand much depends on the existing condition and what I want done. Assume an average stock rebuild of a running but tired drivetrain and including known upgrades to improve reliability.

Thanks

The problem with a ballpark number is that, as you said in your first post, there are lots of different definitions of rebuilt. And 'perfect fully-rebuilt' can span a price range of 3x the low estimate. The trick is to get an estimate from someone (like Bob's Indian Sales) who you know will do it right the first time.

Keep in mind that if you put a $8,000 engine in a $20,000 bike, you still basically have a $20,000 bike. Same as with cars. The absolute best route is to find a bike that someone *else* has put a good new engine in... and they will take the depreciation and loss. As you know from the car world, restoration costs far outstrip the value of most vehicles... So let someone else take the hit.

An alternative is to do a lot of the work yourself. If you take out your own time (and most people are talented enough to do 'some' work themselves) you can avoid spending $55 - 75 for every hour you work yourself. But remember that taking on a restoration is a lifestyle choice. You won't have a life until it is done... or it will take forever and not get done. And it sounds like you want something a bit more more turnkey.

Probably some people will be able to jump in with an Indian engine rebuild cost. I have no idea. But low estimates are never the cheapest option... and the best builders will have months-long lead-times. So beware the guy who gives a great price and tells you he can start on it tomorrow.

Just some pre-coffee rambles. Lack of caffeine is my excuse for any controversial remarks.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[exeric]

You should deffinately put the Jefferson AMCA meet on your calendar. There is no substitute for person to person communication, especially when you have a bike to look at as someone explains the intricacies of each component. That can take the mystery out a new hobby and make it a lot more friendly. Also, someone like Robin Markey will know where good Indians can be found, and which ones to stay away from.

[Skirted]

You should deffinately put the Jefferson AMCA meet on your calendar. There is no substitute for person to person communication, especially when you have a bike to look at as someone explains the intricacies of each component. That can take the mystery out a new hobby and make it a lot more friendly. Also, someone like Robin Markey will know where good Indians can be found, and which ones to stay away from.

Eric,
Sounds like a good idea. Just under a 4 hour drive so not too bad. What time should I plan to get there Saturday. Do you know if there is an admission fee for spectators? Will there be food there or should we eat before arriving?
About how many bikes total attend and about how many vintage chiefs would be expected?
Thanks

[Rollo]

Jason,

No admission charge and the earlier you can get there the better. It technically opens on Friday but a lot of folks will be there Thursday. By Saturday a lot of the primo stuff is already gone. There is the White Rose club house which has a kitchen and dinning room and serves, hot dogs, hamburgers, fish sandwhiches, breakfast stuff and other stuff. It also has large bathrooms with showers. At times the line can get long but they move them through okay. You can camp out if you want or there are motels close by. Check the weather before you go beceause if it rains or has rained it can be muddy and I would recommend bringing appropriate foot wear. It is a laid back affair with a good vibe and the last swap meet of the year. Bob and Robin Markey (noted Indian experts) as well as a host of other Indian experts will be there and so will a bunch of bikes. You will not be dissapointed.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA # 12766

[exeric]

I haven't been to the Jefferson meet for a few years but I always thought it was the most beautiful location on the AMCA meet calendar. It's a smaller meet but high quality and the most like an old AMCA meet.

[fillibuster]

Jason,

No admission charge and the earlier you can get there the better. It technically opens on Friday but a lot of folks will be there Thursday. By Saturday a lot of the primo stuff is already gone. There is the White Rose club house which has a kitchen and dinning room and serves, hot dogs, hamburgers, fish sandwhiches, breakfast stuff and other stuff. It also has large bathrooms with showers. At times the line can get long but they move them through okay. You can camp out if you want or there are motels close by. Check the weather before you go beceause if it rains or has rained it can be muddy and I would recommend bringing appropriate foot wear. It is a laid back affair with a good vibe and the last swap meet of the year. Bob and Robin Markey (noted Indian experts) as well as a host of other Indian experts will be there and so will a bunch of bikes. You will not be dissapointed.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA # 12766

I recommend an 8x12 truck tarp and a sleeping bag, get there night before, wake up with the chickens, grab your thermos that you filled the night before, and BE THE FIRST GUY SNIFFIN' THE LANES!!

[Skirted]

Jason,

No admission charge and the earlier you can get there the better. It technically opens on Friday but a lot of folks will be there Thursday. By Saturday a lot of the primo stuff is already gone. There is the White Rose club house which has a kitchen and dinning room and serves, hot dogs, hamburgers, fish sandwhiches, breakfast stuff and other stuff. It also has large bathrooms with showers. At times the line can get long but they move them through okay. You can camp out if you want or there are motels close by. Check the weather before you go beceause if it rains or has rained it can be muddy and I would recommend bringing appropriate foot wear. It is a laid back affair with a good vibe and the last swap meet of the year. Bob and Robin Markey (noted Indian experts) as well as a host of other Indian experts will be there and so will a bunch of bikes. You will not be dissapointed.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA # 12766

Thanks for the detailed explanation Tom. Since I don't have a bike yet we'll plan on driving out Friday evening and being there early Saturday. Looking forward to our first AMCA event.

[Lonewolf_51]

Skirted. best thing you can do is find someone who knows what they're doing who will help you take down and rebuild(take notes and pictures). You will learn ins and outs and understand all that is invovled with keeping this bike running. If it breaks down, you will have somewhat of an idea of what to do to diagnos problems. Believe me, this will happen more than you can count. I can't even think to own one of these bikes without putting in this time. Still learning after all these years!

[rigb]

Good advice from all. The main thing is take your time. There is more Chiefs out there than you may think. Chief prices have pretty much topped out for now, so you have time to find the right one. Show quality correct ones are at the top, but a really beautiful one that only an expert would notice the minor things on will make 99.9% of all who see it droll all over themselves. That difference is between $5,000- $10,00 in cost. Find what you think fits your style best, the point is to have fun, meet great people, and be proud of your bike. I agree, go to some meets and talk to owners, they usually are happy to share.

[Skirted]

Take a look at this completed listing. Does it surprise anyone what this bike sold for? I thought it would go for around $14-15k. Duh!
The seller should be pretty happy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/India...item43b34bb1d0