46 Chief - Need Engine Rebuild

[Knotthed]

Indianut,

Can you tell me what you use to measure the I.D. of the case races and rod journals?

I am looking at getting a dial bore gauge with 1 ten thousandths resolution or better for this - do you have any other recommendations?

Also, how about measuring the I.D.'s of cam bushings, etc...?

Wish I was closer to you. I am not looking for your virtual finger print, but if you could share some of those - watch out for's that would be great!

I know what you are saying about there being a lot of stuff to check and evaluate.

I scrapped my stock rods when I found a suspect crack with the mag machine - I was lucky enough to use the machine at work during off hours for a couple of minutes.

[indianut]

Depending on what I am measuring I use Telescoping Snap Gages and a Micrometer, or a Sunnen Bore Gage that reads .0001. With practice and patience you can be as accurate with the Snap Gages!

[tfburke3]

I hve Starett snap gauges and mics,but find it hard to get repeatable readings,and really have never measured rod or case races.With new pins I have them honed to fit until the pin just drops through with the thrust washer and the assembled bearings and cages.
Tom

[indianut]

Well, there you have it. If you do not know how to use the Measuring Tools.......just don't!

[tfburke3]

yes I guess I just dont know how to use them,but I know how to fit a crankpin using the pin and measured bearings to check fit while honing.
have fun
tom

[fillibuster]

yes I guess I just dont know how to use them,but I know how to fit a crankpin using the pin and measured bearings to check fit while honing.
have fun
tom

Glad you mentioned it, Tom! That's how it's done in my shop too. Gauges are fine, but the end result is often obtainable by other means.
I have pill bottles full of (good) rollers, from .2495 to .2515 and when lapping and the pin barely fits into .250 set, I install (or order) the .2505 rollers for a .001 clearance. .... and I thought all the pros did it this way.

When you don't have the tools you either build them, or improvise with other methods to get there. Don't have a level? reference the horizon (I've done it on flat lands in Ohio!), or 3-4-5 it off a plumb bob (plumb-compass-square). They didn't make bubble sticks way back when, and some of the oldest buildings in the world are way over modern architects' heads.

I still farm out the boring and valve work, and get tagged pretty good, but most auto-machine shops are reliable enough.

[fillibuster]

Indianut,

You sound knowledgeable and not to hijack the thread, could you list the typical uses for the equipment in your post? I am looking to get some Experience and Practice on my powerplant. Maybe, you could provide some pointers for a new DIY'er trying to learn? It might also provide some insight to how much each piece of equipment gets used and if outsourcing is a better approach due to the cost of tools. I am slowly assembling the tools I need and plan on outsourcing what I cannot do my self. I have the items with an "*"

Available in AMCA Library:
*Book

Available at Local engine shop?:
*Milling Machine - rough boring cylinders, deck cylinders,
Boring Bar - used with Mill for boring cylinders
Hone - Hone cylinders, case races, rod races, pushrod guides
*Lathe - ?
*Surface Grinder - ? maybe flywheel/rod shims?
Valve and Valve Seat Equipment - obvious?


Plus a whole bunch of Special Tools......
*Gear Pullers - Pinion
Gear Installers - have any pics? is there a special installer for the pinion gear?
*Race Pushers - Rod races
Race Pushers - case races - any pics for case races prior to 46?
*Micrometers - measurement
*Bore Gages - measurement
Flywheel Jigs - any pics and usage information?
*Truing Stand - is a bench center adequate?
*Dial indicators - used with truing stand/bench center
Balancing Setup - any pics and info? and Is it really necessary unless your gonna race it?
Rod Squaring Plate - any pics and info?
Etc. - any other information?

No motor rebuild experience, but I am knowledgeable about most of the equipment listed and I can turn a wrench and I really want to do as much of it as I can myself. I hope to do a second powerplant someday.

This past summer I successfully rebuilt a BMW R60 transmission after I had problems with it from the shop I took it to. That built my confidence, but I'm still afraid to a point about working with these pricey items. If money were not an issue I would probably be done already. I need to do it right the first time and not break anything in the process.

Wish I had a good engine builder in my back yard to learn from.

Thanks in advance,

Knotthed, you are sufficiently equipped and experienced to dig in, just stop when you are not certain of things, and and ask around. You will farm out some of the work, obviously, because you can't afford (presume) to own expensive equipment and let it sit idle. You won't acquire a boring bar until you've paid too much for too many cyls. Experience is the BEST teacher, resourcefulness is your best tool.

A good mechanic would like to know what's under the hood. Go there, especially if you enjoy it!

[PRG]

Howdy chaps,

Though Smitty from Rock Island has left us, besides beyond a delightful person to be around and talk to, had many decades experience working on Indians. His later years were more focused on refurbishing bottom ends for which, when “field dressing” was required (race track), he could make do with minimal tools. His innate mechanical aptitude, experience and feel yielded the biggest benefits on the flywheel/rod assembly as this is the most critical assembly in these motors, the rest is pretty forgiving. Flywheel truing especially can frustrate the inexperienced and rod alignment needs to be verified.

It is very rewarding to breathe new life into one of these old beasts and if one is rebuilding a tired running machine as opposed to assembling a swap meet sourced pile and is lacking in experience I’d seek professional help for the bottom end and have a go at the rest myself. If boring quite a bit over, I’d take the cylinders to professionals to ensure a straight bore, have them just rough cut to within about a thou or so to clearance and then do the rest myself, as achieving that final desired plateau hone with just the right cross hatch is time consuming (very expensive) for a shop on job rates. Lisle Corp makes a nice hone which I mounted in my drill press after making a fluid-proof box anchor my cylinder in. Neway makes excellent valve grinding equipment up to the task of handling the hard stainless valves commonly fitted to Indians. The rest after that is bushing installs where required but predominantly a lot of fiddly measuring as Indians use a lot of shims and spacers. (not going to comment and that requirement other than it compensates for manufacturing inaccuracy).

Last December I freshened up my old dusty trail horse with a powerplant rebuild here. The only prominent equipment requirements were a truing stand, valve seat grinding and honing for which I forwent having a shop rough bore and did that myself. You really get a sense of involvement when ressurecting one these machines yourself and if it turns out to be a half a prod kick starter hot or cold with no oil leaks...well, doesn't get more satisfying than that.

[dwhendri]

Gents,
I've been following this thread with great interest, because like heywag, I too am looking to have a professional rebuild my Chief's powerplant.
Although I can certainly appreciate the 'if you ride it, you should be able to fix it' line of thinking, for some of us that's just not a viable option. As was pointed out, there's a lot of specialized equipment required to rebuild one of these 'simple' engines, and some folks don't have the room, money, or time to invest in this portion of the rebuild. I trust my mechanical skills with the rest of the bike, but when the drivetrain is bolted in, I want to feel confident that there won't be any surprises when I kick it over. I completely understand a professional rebuild isn't cheap, but in the long run it's cheaper than doing it twice. Just my 2 cents, and I hope it doesn't seem like i'm thin-skinned - I just thought heywag asked a reasonable question, and I was interested in hearing of some recommended builders.

[c.o.]

Gents,
I've been following this thread with great interest, because like heywag, I too am looking to have a professional rebuild my Chief's powerplant.
Although I can certainly appreciate the 'if you ride it, you should be able to fix it' line of thinking, for some of us that's just not a viable option. As was pointed out, there's a lot of specialized equipment required to rebuild one of these 'simple' engines, and some folks don't have the room, money, or time to invest in this portion of the rebuild. I trust my mechanical skills with the rest of the bike, but when the drivetrain is bolted in, I want to feel confident that there won't be any surprises when I kick it over. I completely understand a professional rebuild isn't cheap, but in the long run it's cheaper than doing it twice. Just my 2 cents, and I hope it doesn't seem like i'm thin-skinned - I just thought heywag asked a reasonable question, and I was interested in hearing of some recommended builders.

You've made a valuable point. It is important (pocket book wise) to recognize ones limitations. I would imagine that most engine builders would rather repair a wore out piece than fix a backyard botch job. Bob's Indian... http://bobsindian.com/ and Indianut were mentioned here I believe.

[PRG]

Howdy chaps,

Probably time to clarify. Peripheral posts to the thread starter are not (in my case, at least) intended to dilute its validity in any way. These give context and a broader perspective on the front end to those looking here initially for specific guidance for which that need once satisfied and understood generally moved to the next level with 'if I was to do this then what's required'.

By discussing the issue more broadly, you help more individually quantify just how big a bite they might be qualified to take out of that elephant, here in an online format serving as a ready permanent archive in one spot, one-stop-shopping destination for their convenyance.

Some of the most educationally concentrated info I've gotten on single model/ marque machines has been at Caimag when someone throws out the latest OP offering on fleabay looking for a comment on the finish of one fastener only to get a barrage of scrutiny on everything else.

[Knotthed]

I did not mean to hijack the thread, but I feel it has been a great discussion about rebuilding and has also offered the OP some suggestions to get great professional engine jobs.

In the spirit of keeping this discussion alive and further the education and to help me, I have a question.

What year did they incorporate an oil passage in the case above the drive side race into the race? Secondly, is this a worthy addition to an older model engine?

If this is a worthy upgrade - what size hole is it and approximate location? I would think it would enter the bore for the race where the recess is on the race - thus providing a passage for oil. I just don't know how far above the race ID it should be and how big. I can also see the need to avoid exposing this hole to the outside of the case.

It makes no sense to me to have a hole in the race to just collect crap without a way to feed it or to flush it. I can see things like honing grit and other stuff just collecting in there. There is evidence of grime in there when I removed my current race.

What are the thoughts on this?