AMF = bad Harley?

[INLINE4NUT]

Bob thats my point they have gotten out of touch!!! To many models over priced and the beat goes on !!!

[Robert Luland]

Inlinefour. You repeating the incorrect statement that H-D was on the brink. This false. They were enjoying record profits and needed a partner to help them expand. When they were on the brink is when the new company bought themselves from AMF. It was close then, but they turned things around and so far are still with us. Hopefully they will survive this downturn in the economy.

Four dealerships belly up in New Jersey This year so far. Bob L

[INLINE4NUT]

Chris I stand corrected ! If they still have their head up their ass for much longer they will go the way of Indian !

[Chris Haynes]

HD was using wornout machinery, they were down on capitol, bike design was staggnet. AmF was sold a bill of goods that HD was in good shape. Why AMF finally gave it up was because their stockholders wanted to stop the bleeding. It cost them a fortune to retool, new designs, upgrades. The family bought it back when it was ready to take off again. They had been working for AMF all along. It didn't help that HD's works union problems almost brought AMF to a screeching halt soon after they aquired HD. Amf SAVED HD and never gets their proper due.

Proper due?
Well Rich,
I think you may need to do a bit of studying.
After the initial investments AMF made millions on the back of H-D. They didn't put it back in the company. I got the reports as an AMF shareholder.
There were thirteen private investors who bought H-D from AMF. One of them was a grandson of the founding fathers and an employee. None of the other eleven had a relation to H-D other than being employees of it. One was not an employee or a relative. H-D was not sold back to the "Family".
AMF owned H-D for thirteen years. Most of the machinery age was less than that. Everything at the York plant was new in the early 1970's. John Nowak wanted a new facility and he got it.
AMF spent an announced three million dollars prototyping the Nova series of motorcycles. Then decided not to produce it. AMF H-D purchased the Tri Hawk Motorcycle Company that produced an enclosed machine with two wheels in front and one in the rear. It was BMW powered. H-D planned to build them with H-D power. But AMF H-D dropped the plan after spending millions on it. Is their pattern starting to register? No wonder they were losing money.
The Alternator Shovelhead was prototyped by H-D before the AMF merger. It became a 1970 model. AMF H-D came out with the five speed rubber glides in 1980 and prototyped the Evolution engine.
Most of AMF's problems can be traced to two different things. Lack of quality control, producing faulty machines. Seriously overloading on parts from vendors. AMF used to brag about "Their Warehouse In The Sky" at the York Plant. A conveyor with hundreds of engines and transmissions running around the ceiling of the plant. When the New H-D took over the first things they did was to jump on quality control and eliminate the storage of huge amounts of parts and go the MAN (Materials As Needed) system of parts inventory. These two things did a lot for the new company. Quality came up, as did sales. Their first three years were touch and go with them struggling to stay in the black, they spent a lot of this time in the red. H-D was doing machining on parts for other companies to stay afloat. I saw manifolds for Chrysler products being machined at the Capitol Drive Plant.
Then something happened and in 1986 they found themselves solidly in the black and going strong. At this time they were able to take the MoCo public. Cash poured in. H-D was now in a position to buy other companies and make lots of improvements and expansion. The new HDI continued to grow for years.
The business world is an ever changing world. For years HDI was struggling to increase production. Now they are in the middle of a fourteen week shutdown on production as sales are way down. Will HDI survive this economic downturn? I hope so.

[rickgeo]

Posters,
The story I heard,from listening to Jean Davidson speak at a seminar some years ago,was that back before AMF,HD was a privately held company.

The Davidson family (kids,grandkids,shoe-string cousins etc.) had grown to a point,& most of them had no interest in having anything to do with operating the MoCo.

They just wanted they're share of the $$$,of which nobody could agree what the worth was.(remember,privately held Co.earnings do not have to be made public) so,they went looking for a suitor.

I can't remember exactly,but I believe there were 3-4,& there was a bit of family disharmony of which deal was best (remember,this was the 60's, a time for agonizing reappraisal!)

An agreement was finally reached with AMF (publicly held Co.with stocks,bonds that could be divied out to the family) because they made the best offer,at least one that the family could agree on.

Anyway,thats the way I heard it, if anyone else can add or dispel that info,I'm all ears!

[RichO]

AMF

HD was using wornout machinery, they were down on capitol, bike design was staggnet. AmF was sold a bill of goods that HD was in good shape. Why AMF finally gave it up was because their stockholders wanted to stop the bleeding. It cost them a fortune to retool, new designs, upgrades. The family bought it back when it was ready to take off again. They had been working for AMF all along. It didn't help that HD's works union problems almost brought AMF to a screeching halt soon after they aquired HD. Amf SAVED HD and never gets their proper due.

[Chris Haynes]

Inlinefour. You repeating the incorrect statement that H-D was on the brink. This false. They were enjoying record profits and needed a partner to help them expand. When they were on the brink is when the new company bought themselves from AMF. It was close then, but they turned things around and so far are still with us. Hopefully they will survive this downturn in the economy.

[INLINE4NUT]

Ive had many many Harleys and some of them, lots of them, were AMF era, They all with the exception of an XLCH ran flawlessly!! And the only problem with it was the kickstart gear slipping (anybody that had one knows the drill !! ) I also feel if AMF would not have taken over,well who really knows, but they did and HD is still here ! If they are not careful they may be on the brink again !!!

[s/l]

Hi,

Too late to comment? Well, in my limited experience it seems that
quite a number of AMF Harleys were assembled in a big rush. The
few I've been into appear to have been assembled by apes who
were not aware of proper assembly proceedures. Bad balance
jobs, improper clearances ect. Each time I resolved the problems
by disassembly, replacing damaged parts and assembly by the
book (Harley Shop Manual). The factory used good materials but
their quality control was absent and they didn't follow their own
shop proceedures...... Once you correct the deficiencies and
properly reassemble your bike will run like a clock and dependable
as a steel ball.

[Rooster]

The fight over H-D by AMF and other concerns plus the in-company anger and resentment is one of the last untold stories. It got ugly and nasty with good guys and bad guys and a very good story.

Mr. Wagner, I recently finished reading your excellent book "At The Creation", and was so impressed I rushed out and ordered your book "Harley-Davidson 1930-1941". I must say "At The Creation" solidly explains the facts about the very beginning of the MoCo, and I greatly appreciate your work.
Now... how about that AMF story--- seems to be most folks (present company excluded) are un-informed or at best ill-informed as to the facts surrounding the aquisition of HD by AMF. Any thoughts of a new book? (You don't have to answer the question....... )

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

Though much in to Indians, Vincents and other distractions now, my two remaining old shovels, still loved, though not ridden nearly as often as they should be come from the AMF era (the long gone 83 FXR had alloy surfaces finished like a fine watch ,ran superbly and can't be compared to these).

I bought the 77 FLH - TheFatster - here in 1987 about a week before m/c riding became very popular to the masses from an HD dealer for the princely sum of $2,500. They were literally 10grand a week later.

With the exception of an unsuccessfull application of black pearl paint (consistency of soft rubber floor tile from not having cured), which I would guess was an improvement over its stock brown metallic paint (!) it was bone stock at 12k miles complete with red jeweled rocker box nuts. But, it was positively filthy from the front of the rear cylinder to the taillight. Upon disassembly I discovered that the (disgruntled) assembler had slammed the inner primary home sheering off one third of the o-ring at the engine case spigot. Machines of this era vented through the primary so this one was a leaker from day one. Apparently expectations of HD products of this era were low enough this was exceptable and never fixed. That repaired and the usual sealed gland nut at the drive sprocket and it remains dry to this day....though in bad need of a rebuild now.

On my 81 Sturgis here, the much lauded move to electronic ignition resulted in a unit sourced from Magnavox which, besides resulting in a very stepped advance feed because of a minimal bit processor also had a tendency to be hard on the stock ignition coil. Not in a way that was readily discernible as being that, mind you, if you taxed your spark with increased compression and then obscured that cam and other mods you didn't know what the problem was. A stop light drag race resulting in a bit of detonation on the rear cylinder, subsequet head gasket failure and a thoroughly burnt left calf hastened a change to the evo ignition upgrade and this thing now runs like a top.

Like late Norton Commando's, these shovels just needed a thorough going over to be as usable as anything else, and with loads of character to

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

Though much in to Indians, Vincents and other distractions now, my two remaining old shovels, still loved, though not ridden nearly as often as they should be come from the AMF era (the long gone 83 FXR had alloy surfaces finished like a fine watch ,ran superbly and can't be compared to these).

I bought the 77 FLH - TheFatster - here in 1987 about a week before m/c riding became very popular to the masses from an HD dealer for the princely sum of $2,500. They were literally 10grand a week later.

With the exception of an unsuccessfull application of black pearl paint (consistency of soft rubber floor tile from not having cured), which I would guess was an improvement over its stock brown metallic paint (!) it was bone stock at 12k miles complete with red jeweled rocker box nuts. But, it was positively filthy from the front of the rear cylinder to the taillight. Upon disassembly I discovered that the (disgruntled) assembler had slammed the inner primary home sheering off one third of the o-ring at the engine case spigot. Machines of this era vented through the primary so this one was a leaker from day one. Apparently expectations of HD products of this era were low enough this was exceptable and never fixed. That repaired and the usual sealed gland nut at the drive sprocket and it remains dry to this day....albeit as the top end has succumbed to hot riding conditions down here.

On my 81 Sturgis here, the much lauded move to electronic ignition resulted in a unit sourced from Magnavox which, besides resulting in a very stepped advance feed because of a minimal bit processor also had a tendency to be hard on the stock ignition coil. Not in a way that was readily discernible as being that, mind you, if you taxed your spark with increased compression and then obscured that cam and other mods you didn't know what the problem was. A stop light drag race resulting in a bit of detonation on the rear cylinder, subsequet head gasket failure and a thoroughly burnt left calf hastened a change to the evo ignition upgrade and this thing now runs like a top.

Like late Norton Commando's, these shovels just needed a thorough going over to be as usable as anything else, and with loads of character to boot.

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

Though much in to Indians, Vincents and other distractions now, my two remaining old shovels, still loved, though not ridden nearly as often as they should be come from the AMF era (the long gone 83 FXR had alloy surfaces finished like a fine watch ,ran superbly and can't be compared to these).

I bought the 77 FLH - TheFatster - here in 1987 about a week before m/c riding became very popular to the masses from an HD dealer for the princely sum of $2,500. They were literally 10grand a week later.

With the exception of an unsuccessfull application of black pearl paint (consistency of soft rubber floor tile from not having cured), which I would guess was an improvement over its stock brown metallic paint (!) it was bone stock at 12k miles complete with red jeweled rocker box nuts. But, it was positively filthy from the front of the rear cylinder to the taillight. Upon disassembly I discovered that the (disgruntled) assembler had slammed the inner primary home sheering off one third of the o-ring at the engine case spigot. Machines of this era vented through the primary so this one was a leaker from day one. Apparently expectations of HD products of this era were low enough this was exceptable and never fixed. That repaired and the usual sealed gland nut at the drive sprocket and it remains dry to this day....allthough very noisy as it's never been apart and a short spell with a piece of duct tape obscuring the oil feed 15 years ago (don't ask) was not offset sufficiently by a liberal dose of STP.

On my 81 Sturgis here, the much lauded move to electronic ignition resulted in a unit sourced from Magnavox which, besides resulting in a very stepped advance feed because of a minimal bit processor also had a tendency to be hard on the stock ignition coil. Not in a way that was readily discernible as being that, mind you, if you taxed your spark with increased compression and then obscured that cam and other mods you didn't know what the problem was. A stop light drag race resulting in a bit of detonation on the rear cylinder, subsequet head gasket failure and a thoroughly burnt left calf hastened a change to the evo ignition upgrade and this thing now runs like a top.

Like late Norton Commando's, these shovels just needed a thorough going over to be as usable as anything else, and with loads of character to boot.

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

Though much in to Indians, Vincents and other distractions now, my two remaining old shovels, still loved, though not ridden nearly as often as they should be come from the AMF era (the long gone 83 FXR had alloy surfaces finished like a fine watch ,ran superbly and can't be compared to these).

I bought the 77 FLH - TheFatster - here in 1987 about a week before m/c riding became very popular to the masses from an HD dealer for the princely sum of $2,500. They were literally 10grand a week later.

With the exception of an unsuccessfull application of black pearl paint (consistency of soft rubber floor tile from not having cured), which I would guess was an improvement over its stock brown metallic paint (!) it was bone stock at 12k miles complete with red jeweled rocker box nuts. But, it was positively filthy from the front of the rear cylinder to the taillight. Upon disassembly I discovered that the (disgruntled) assembler had slammed the inner primary home sheering off one third of the o-ring at the engine case spigot. Machines of this era vented through the primary so this one was a leaker from day one. Apparently expectations of HD products of this era were low enough this was exceptable and never fixed. That repaired and the usual sealed gland nut at the drive sprocket and it remains dry to this day....albeit as the top end has succumbed to hot riding conditions down here.

On my 81 Sturgis here, the much lauded move to electronic ignition resulted in a unit sourced from Magnavox which, besides resulting in a very stepped advance feed because of a minimal bit processor also had a tendency to be hard on the stock ignition coil. Not in a way that was readily discernible as being that, mind you, if you taxed your spark with increased compression and then obscured that cam and other mods you didn't know what the problem was. A stop light drag race resulting in a bit of detonation on the rear cylinder, subsequet head gasket failure and a thoroughly burnt left calf hastened a change to the evo ignition upgrade and this thing now runs like a top.

Like late Norton Commando's, these shovels just needed a thorough going over to be as usable as anything else, and with loads of character to boot.

[Chris Haynes]

As Herb pointed out H-D's factory and tooling was outdated. The company was making record profits at the time but needed a lot more to upgrade the company. Many suitors tried to become H-D's partner but it was AMF who was already in the recreation business got the job.
AMF poured a lot of money into H-D. But then they became complacent. While trying to lower their overhead they decided to let H-D suffer. Cutbacks in quality control and R&D almost put the company out of business.
It was at this time, in the Spring of 1981, that I was applying for an H-D franchise. I was on the plane for Milwaukee when I noticed the article the guy seated next to me was reading in "The Wall Street Journal". The headline was "Honda Buys Harley-Davidson". I about crapped my pants. Of course when I got to Juneau Ave. I was assured that the article was incorrect. But that is how close things got. H-D was faltering and the rumors in the industry were unbelieveable. Thanks to the thirteen individuals that hocked everything they owned to buy the MoCo from AMF it is still here today.