1966 FLH Linkert DC7 Info Please

[chuckthebeatertruck]

You mean, Chuck,...

At that price, there is actually a market niche left?

My days of playing with modern carbs are three decades past, and since that was before I religiously applied bubble theory, I cannot judge any credibly.

My philosophy is that there are no 'bad' carbs, just horribly over-complicated ones.

....Cotten

There is indeed, but drying up fast.

The main driver is that there's a difference between DIY street rebuilds and proper rebuilds that restore truly as new function. Many people struggle to get a L series or a Super B to work properly. When they are new or restored to new -- they are beyond sensitive, which compounds that challenge further. Considering how many people think a pumper carb is just the ticket -- you can see where I'm going.

Juggling float heights, intermediates and mains takes a lot of saddle time and a really good note book. The end result is magic -- but there is such a paucity of correct information about the carbs to make one cry.

Conversely, getting a DC Linkert to operate well across the entire operating range is pretty much within any enthusiasts grasp. They won't necessarily get it clean at all settings; but they sure can get it clean enough to do this:


IMG_5893.JPG

When I first shared this photo with some friends; they swore up and down I was running lean :-0 However, I then lay some information on them -- these plugs have a few thousand miles on them and came from my '59 XLH with a stock DC Linkert and stock air cleaner. The only "performance" mod is a K&N filter in the cleaner housing. Note they ain't "new" plugs either. So, yep, one can indeed tune this "old garbage" to work with "modern" fuel and not have any issues.


I find a lot of folks who complain about DCs or pre-1990 S&S simply lack sufficient saddle time to truly work out the kinks. They expect internet bullshido to sort them out . . .and get frustrated when they discover all the "advice" is from folks who think riding their old bike 500 miles a year might break it.


Anyways, guys who like DC often love sand cast S&S for the same reason: 3 moving parts -- choke, throttle disc, and float pivot. Not a whole lot to screw up or go wrong. I haven't really found a reason to not embrace this "old" technology.

[T. Cotten]

Probably because the Super B just flat out works in the environment for which it was designed.

You mean, Chuck,...

At that price, there is actually a market niche left?

My days of playing with modern carbs are three decades past, and since that was before I religiously applied bubble theory, I cannot judge any credibly.

My philosophy is that there are no 'bad' carbs, just horribly over-complicated ones.

....Cotten

[chuckthebeatertruck]

How could a B be worth that much without one?

....Cotten

Probably because the Super B just flat out works in the environment for which it was designed.

[T. Cotten]

I think Zenith just bought Bendix (carb division) and put their name on everything, Silver!

...Also on market from the late 1960s forward were a variety of CV carbs and pumper carbs from SU, Weber, Dell Orto and others. Yet, S&S held out until 1990 on pumpers...

I would say that is to S&S's credit, Chuck!

Don't need no steenking pump.

How could a B be worth that much without one?

....Cotten

[silver65]

Yes Thank you Cotten Zenith had and opened a factory in Detroit in 1911 and have been around a long time but started in France.

[T. Cotten]

You forgot the contribution of the Zenith carb to the family of Bendix and Keihin carbs when Bendix purchased Zenith in the 70's and continued using the Zenith name and the Keihin carb is just like the Zenith with a improved fuel delivery system perfected in Japan. The S&S "L" Series catalog chuck has illustrated is for sale on 2040 parts for $14.95 if still available if any of you like or collect original motorcycle literature. I have always thought of S&S as good "aftermarket" Parts.

Don't look now, Silver!

But early Zeniths, such as upon the Indian Fours, wasn't anything like you think.

T3½PAIRL.jpg

ZLID1.jpg



The L&L DC Model was revolutionary as a production carburetor because it enabled a horizontal throttleshaft for a v-twin motor, thus evening the charge between the cylinders.

Then everybody did it.

....Cotten

[silver65]

You forgot the contribution of the Zenith carb to the family of Bendix and Keihin carbs when Bendix purchased Zenith in the 70's and continued using the Zenith name and the Keihin carb is just like the Zenith with a improved fuel delivery system perfected in Japan. The S&S "L" Series catalog chuck has illustrated is for sale on 2040 parts for $14.95 if still available if any of you like or collect original motorcycle literature. I have always thought of S&S as good "aftermarket" Parts.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Because the general confusion between the first S&S carbs (based on DC design concepts) and the later L series carbs comes up so often . . .here is an illustration of the first model (G) and the later L series side by side.

S&S L Carb.JPG


Note the multitude of small, but significant changes -- and if you are familiar with DCs you'll see where the carbs cross over in concept, but differ considerably in parts and assembly (ie no separate throttle body, etc). But, notice that the CHOKE is separate on the first model. That's awfully similar to how Linkert designed things . . . There's also significant changes between float bowls across the several series of S&S carbs -- with three different needles and three different floats, plus two feed positions. In other words, there's a lot more to this story than S&S copying a DC. They didn't so much as copy as they did use the design concepts linkert had refined over a 50 year period. The smith's then refined it further and focused on what an L Series is known for -- crazy ass acceleration. Where most carbs NEED a pump; the L series just goes until the rider runs out of cojones. Conversely, when you hit the brakes they go hella lean and will spit fuel right at your chest/face through the vent stack -- something that never happens on a DC.

As to time frames and copying; let's set a few things even more straight:
The early G or F carbs (gas or fuel) came out in late 1967 and saw slight mods through 1971.
The L Series were sold 1972-1975 You will see these the most at swap meets and most often as GAL (1-7/8). GBL is much more rare and works tremendously well from 55 to 75 cubic inches. But, then as now, most HD guys buy the biggest carb they can. I'm presently running a GBL on a 78" motor without fuss.
The Modified series (MGAL, MGL) was sold 1976 to 1980/81. Some say they were sold into the mid 1980s,but I don't have documentation on that.
The Super D first appeared circa late '74 and the Super B went on sale in 1975. It is still sold today for an impressive $800. Here's the direct link to S&S for the current price: https://www.sscycle.com/products/sup...rburetor-only/
The Super E didn't appear until . . .1990

Harley went through DC Linkert, Tillitson, Bendix, and two models of Keihin (butterfly and CV) during this same time period -- ending with the Keihin CV. Also on market from the late 1960s forward were a variety of CV carbs and pumper carbs from SU, Weber, Dell Orto and others. Yet, S&S held out until 1990 on pumpers.

Super B outsold the L series by a huge margin and the Super E outsold the B by a huge margin.

But, go back to that 1990 date. Somehow -- for roughly 25 years, S&S sold butterfly carbs based on "old" concepts . . .no accelerator pump -- and yet they remain one of the best known "performance" carbs for harley. And that "archaic" design that mimics the DC was sold clean into the 1980s -- from a 1950s design. Hmmm. Why would anyone plunk down good money for an "old" new carb?

BMW used to advertise that the pinnacle of engineering wasn't how complicated you can make something, but how simple.

Notice there are five fewer parts on the L series vs. the earlier G . . and the super b has even fewer parts. There's almost nothing to go wrong . . . except ham fisted repairs.

In other words -- embrace and enjoy the DC. It's a terrific little carb that has some flaws, but not too many for normal street riding with normal conditions.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks Chuck!

Just dug out my manifold box, and they all measure the same, contrary to my memory.

But I did find a funny 3/8" thick phenolic spacer.

Smells real to me...

...Cotten

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Magneto sportster and I turn similar mileage each year on old sporties running D.C. I had issues my first season with the pivot as mentioned here, but zero float issues. I've since covered 12k trouble free miles. I finfpd the D.C. The easiest carb on earth to keep in tune.

as for S&S, let's clean this up.

first carbs were G for gas, two sizes and very similar to D.C.
second Series were L, for late. GAL = gas, 1-7/8, late, gbl = gas, 1-3/4, late
third series were MGAL/MGBL. Same as above ur the m stands for modified.

The super b succeeded the L series. It has a concentric float to solve one of the l series downsides which is a major lean surge that happens when you hit the binders hard. The b also features much more easily accessed jets and a few other tricks that improve on the L.

The e is a different beast.

Spacers and insulators are as needed for clearance with magneto, though they come in handy for avoiding the cleaner hitting the big tank on pre-61 models. None needed for big twin.

Dc bolts right up to 1-7/8 manifold manifold whether alloy or iron. Iron/iron is hard to beat, but you must watch upper bolt lengths. D.C. Likes push or pull spirals or a snap throttle. It really is a forgiving beast.

[gitguy]

Single gasket like original, it is.

[silver65]

Do you think your carb support will still line up, Gitguy?

Not much profit in just a single paper gasket!

Think you want to gamble on the insulator material's fuel resistance, when it ain't in the Book?

DCs are awesome. Can you guess what the first S&S carbs were patterned after?

....Cotten

Cotton I know that the S&S manufactured the L&L that had to be engineered after the Linkert DC carb , and I feel that the S&S Super B,E,&G was engineered after the bendix carbs there are just too many similarities to not think any different.

[silver65]

This is what I found on the ITW site regarding the gasket situation, Cotten. That's where the confusion is from. I saw the parts manual showed a single gasket and then I came across this.


gasket.jpg

Thanks for sharing your experience with this Silver. Maybe I'll snag another swing arm pivot as a spare. Then there's Jerry idea of an extra float bowl at the ready.

So now I ask myself "Why do I want to remove a perfectly good carb and replace it with this?"

When I rebuilt my 900 xlch I started out with a new super "E" setup and after getting the jets right it took about 4-5 kicks on cold start with the linkert I got down to two kicks and sometimes one but I am in Florida what is cold I have a new super "E" if any one needs one.

[T. Cotten]

I don't have a clue about Sportsters, Folks!

But I would have expected NOS (as claimed by the vendor) insulating spacers blueprinted in 1957 to be phenolic, which typically is a red-brown material, like Micarta.

Why two instead of one thick one?

Sportsters' iron heads run that much hotter?

....Cotten

[Rubone]

This is what I found on the ITW site regarding the gasket situation, Cotten. That's where the confusion is from. I saw the parts manual showed a single gasket and then I came across this.


gasket.jpg

Thanks for sharing your experience with this Silver. Maybe I'll snag another swing arm pivot as a spare. Then there's Jerry idea of an extra float bowl at the ready.

So now I ask myself "Why do I want to remove a perfectly good carb and replace it with this?"

Read your parts book, not some aftermarket suppliers listings. The stack of gaskets were adopted for Sportsters with magnetos, not for FLs with no clearance issues.