52 Wishbone frame

[Rooster]

Chris, you will never have enough factory photos, even if you had a million...!

[bmh]

Brian.
Over the years I have had conversations with my pattern maker on the manufacture process of original frame components.
I believe the frame components of all Knuckle and Early Pan frames are of a forged process.
This could be simply due to the speed they can be produced. Forge plates are hellishly expensive but the production time is tiny compared to sand casting and pouring a part. The HD factory could justify the expense of a forge set due to the production estimate for the year.

The part numbers and foundry marks on the early original parts are too sharp in detail to have been high production sand cast. The granuals of sand make sharp lettering almost impossible to achieve.
Later in the 50's I believe they started sand casting parts for swing arm frames. The swing arm pivot area and strut mounts look to be sand cast.

The original steel used by HD was a mild steel which was then normalised after forging.
All my parts are cast in 1030 mild steel and then normalised.
My patterns all have joint lines that follow the flash line of the HD forgings.
Keep in mind that Harley were only making one style of neck per year. I have 6.

Thanks for your insight Steve. I've had similar conversations with many over the years regarding forged vs. cast. I agree with the finish looking forged, all one need do is compare it to a wrench from the toolbox. But I'm not so sure about speed of production as some parts would need to be cast and then forged. Such as a frame neck. They are quite hollow inside and this appears to be from casting and not machining, I wasn't aware you could forge a hollow part. Didn't figure you could get the molecular compaction on something that wasn't solid.


As for the foundry still operating? Not sure. Do you know the actual name? The most common result for DIF is Deerborn Iron Foundry, apparently a subsidiary of Ford Motors. They used to cast engine blocks. Don't know if that's the one . Curiously there is the Dutcher Company is listed as a steel furnace in Milwaukee at the turn of the century and was listed as manufacturing castings chiefly for bicycle and machinery purposes. Could be that one. I know the DIF mark is present on frames out to the early 70's. They started making frames in York sometime in the mid 70's. They did a lot of there own foundry work in a lovely little place affectionately known as Hell's Half Acre by those who worked out there. Don't know how those parts are marked. They also made ordinance casings for Uncle Sam. Speaking of which neither the DIF hallmark or the M over F inside a circle as seen on motor mounts is listed as a hallmark used by an armour supplier during WWII.

[Chris in Japan]

A certain amount of components must be made to offset this "set up time" before profit can be achieved.

Hi Steve,

Fascinating thread! I hope you come with your evident tenacity to a "happy end" (and you post it here!).

I work in the car manufacturing industry and I was just willing to remind that your quote above does not necessarily apply always (at least nowadays)! Profitability is of course the "macro" target of the whole thing but very often we practice what we call "firemen actions" were we manufacture very limited batches of parts to solve an issue! And most commonly with horrendous expenses (low volumes plus "I need it for today") that are not profitable at all and that we make sure to get them approved not exactly by our CFO!

Shortly said, maybe not, but you could be also facing a 100 units batch.

Kind regards,

Christian.

[Steve Little]

Hi Chris. Thanks for contributing.
I dont think we will see a quick resolve to the L J frame.
It is now out of the dark and in the larger awareness of the community of this forum which is world wide .
A lot of people who have read this thread, now know there is a frame that bears a L J mark.
If they read the thread, they know it was produced somewhere around the VIN that Chris posted "51FL8265" and somewhere before the un restored Pan that is here in Australia "51 FL144#"
Hopefully, every time they are around a unrestored or "Known History" 51 or 52 Pan they will have a look.

Brian.
I have never been involved with any forging process but when I have talked to the guy who does my sand pattern making, he has talked about spears that are used to pierce forgings when they are still very hot and maluble.
We have no real idea if the DIF foundry who produced these necks for Harley did this type of operation on the necks.
I am in a fairly unique position that I get to look inside the original necks when I take apart wrecked frames for restoration.
The necks could be forged solid. No cores.
I have a collection of nice original necks that I have rescued from some horrific looking wrecks.
I have 3 necks from 1940 frames, 1 neck from 1941-46, a 1947 Bullneck, I also have a small collection of original frames and numerous Pan necks and many other frame components.
The Knuckle frames have all been machined right through. This is to say, the backbone is machined through and into the bearing cup area of the neck. The downtubes are machined right up and meet in the backbone cavity. The top part of these downtube holes are a reduced drill size.

All the areas in the deepest parts of these bores have the "record" lines of drilling.

Some of the Panhead necks still have the backbone hole through the top bearing cup area.

Later Pans are solid at this area, and the backbone hole does not come through into the bearing cup area.

The drilling ends at a solid point deep in the neck. There is a 1/4" wall left between the bearing cup and the backbone bore

All the necks that we make are cast with cores to keep a even wall thickness.
This is for 2 reasons.
1st is to keep shrinkage rates even.
And the second is, ease of machining.
A core hole is easy and fast to drill out with an end mill.

On the name if the DIF foundry,
I remember reading "maybe this site" or a book, a few years ago that it stood for ..... I am guessing now because I didnt write it down.... Detroit Industrial Foundry or something like that.
That would not be the correct name so dont quote it, but it was something like that.

Brian. Maybe your quote is right.
The bicycle place could have done it but I think this style of forge plate would have dwarfed anything they had used for a bicycle.
The forge plates I have seen have been big and heavy compared to the size of the part that was forged in it.
I think the forge plates for these necks would have been 3 feet square by 8" to 10" inches thick.

The foundry would have been a hot dirty place to work and and everyone would have been great at lip reading.

MF made Pan swingarm front engine mounts and maybe swing arm running board lugs from memory.

GL made Straightleg sidecar lugs from the start and continued through Wishbone.

The factory probably farmed out the jobs to different foudries to avoid ?... supply disruption.... control.... quoting.
This is all suposition.

Regards Steve

[bmh]

The bicycle place could have done it but I think this style of forge plate would have dwarfed anything they had used for a bicycle.
The forge plates I have seen have been big and heavy compared to the size of the part that was forged in it.
I think the forge plates for these necks would have been 3 feet square by 8" to 10" inches thick.

That info on the Dutcher foundry is from a listing published at the very beginning of the century. If that enterprise prospered it would have expanded and could have been doing such work in the mid 30's. They only appeared to make steel and had a capacity of almost 1000 tons in the first decade of the 1900's.

Never heard of piercing forgings but I am not surprised at such a thing. My estimation of the necks having cast cavities in them is a result of my peering into the hole that passes through to the steering stem as you mentioned. The late 49 frame I am currently working on does not appear to have any track marks from boring above the front down-tubes inside. will have to clean out some old grease to check the bore for the backbone. I have thus far avoided those frame which needed neck replacement, but as I find myself getting farther into working on frames I know that day is just around the corner. I may call upon you from time to time with some questions if that is OK with you. I have seen your products and know they are very nice quality. Your manufacturing techniques confirm a thought I've long held that cast steel alloys would be quite sufficient for the task required on frame components. If I see one of these LJ frames I will let you know.

[Steve Little]

Any time you need help, advice or parts, just email me. There is a email link on my web site. www.raceframe.com.au

16 hour flight in front of me tomorrow.
I used a bunch of my frequent flyer points and bumped up out of cattle class to Premium Economy.
Sippin on margaritas and wearing winged glases.


Regards Steve

[Fiskis]

Steve,
My 52F563x frame doesn't have that either. Othervise I might have launched the theory that sidecar units had that!

[Fiskis]

Steve,
I have a 52 pan with a vin # 52 FL 565X and don't see the LJ you reference. I bought it from the former owner of Detroit HD, whose personal bike it was. They sold it originally and managed to buy it back from that original purchaser so the history seems pretty solid. It does have a raised marking in a box (which I can't make out) and the number 24 (small numbers) also raised next to it right below the front dash mount on the right side of the neck forging. That is the only head casting marks I can find besides the normal XE ones. Other than paint (some one panted over the original Tropical Green with Persian Red ouch!) and some changed out hardware I believe this bike is original. I can't get to any of the other castings at the tranny/lower seat post or parts covered by the assembly.

Rollo
AMCA# 12766

Rollo, as I noticed that your bike is only 20+ bikes after mine in production, I wonder if it has the later camcover as '53-'64? I have never seen that on other 1952 Panheads except the four police sidecar units imported for the Olympic Games in Helsinki 1952.

Regards Fiskis

[Steve Little]

Hi Fiskis. Can you send me a email. I have a couple of questions for you and cant find your email address.

Brian Howard can you email me also. Sorry I am not sure that I have your email.

Regards Steve

[Rollo]

52 pan

Rollo, as I noticed that your bike is only 20+ bikes after mine in production, I wonder if it has the later camcover as '53-'64? I have never seen that on other 1952 Panheads except the four police sidecar units imported for the Olympic Games in Helsinki 1952.

Regards Fiskis

Fiskis
Yes it does have the later cam cover. Now you have me wondering about this. From everything I see here and in photos it should have the 51-53 style cam cover which is obviously harder to find. I have seen one on ebay but parting with the $$$ right now is tough.

Rollo
AMCA #12766

[Fiskis]

Yes I am very sure that the late camcover is original. Unfortunately the four Finnish Panheads in question came with sidecars so the original pictures with the cops surweiling the Olympic Games in Helsinki 1952, do not show the right side of the motor. But the four bikes with sequental serial numbers were the only postwar model Harleys imported to Finland until 1972. Due to regulations, there was no importation of used motors or bikes till the 1980'ies
The Police auctioned them out in 1962 and 1964. I bought the two from the later lot in 1968. The other two have also have had the same owners for more or less forty years, and nobody has changed the camcovers. In those days parts like pistons were close to impossible to get here, and updating camcovers would have been the last modification to do.
Anybody else has a late '52 Pan with known history?

Regards Fiskis

[Faust]

sideways LJ

I have one of these frames, just got it in a trade... The motor that came with it is a '62, so we're not talking about a stocker with known history. The frame is unmolested save for the tool box mount.

The story that came with the bike is that it was once a side car outfit. The only thing i have to support that claim is that i read in the "How to Restore" book that the brake cross over tube was cut when sidecar rigs were converted over to bikes (at least that's what i remember reading). My frame has a buggered up cross over tube...

Steve, did your frame show the same modification?

I'd be happy to post pictures of specific parts of the frame if requested.

[Chris Haynes]

The only thing i have to support that claim is that i read in the "How to Restore" book that the brake cross over tube was cut when sidecar rigs were converted over to bikes (at least that's what i remember reading).

What were ya smokin' just before ya read that? The brake tube is exactly the same on sidecar models.

[flat-happy]

I have one of these frames, just got it in a trade... The motor that came with it is a '62, so we're not talking about a stocker with known history. The frame is unmolested save for the tool box mount.

The story that came with the bike is that it was once a side car outfit. The only thing i have to support that claim is that i read in the "How to Restore" book that the brake cross over tube was cut when sidecar rigs were converted over to bikes (at least that's what i remember reading). My frame has a buggered up cross over tube...

Steve, did your frame show the same modification?

I'd be happy to post pictures of specific parts of the frame if requested.

i think there was a misunderstanding there---the only brake tube that has to be cut off is when you put a sidecar for a ridged frame on a swingarm bike with hydraulic brakes---you have to cut about 3-4 inches off the tube with the mechanical brake actuating shaft in it then change the outboard sidecar brake to hydraulic. if you don't cut off the tube on the sidecar it will interfere with the swingarm. no modification to the bike at all

[Faust]

Chris, my dad always said i was my momma's boy...

I took some pictures.







We're looking at the right side of the neck, left axle carrier and right axle carrier, respectively.