65 Jug and Head Information needed

[Chips Place]

I have a '65 basket case. They said it's almost all there. Well, to a degree they were right.

I am doing a total restoration and the heads, say 16700-56 front and 16701-56 rear. Well, they may work but they are not right.

The jugs are in question as well, One has a F and the other a R. So................

Does anyone have a picture of what the correct ones look like? A picture showing me what the casting numbers should look like for the heads and jugs as well as the locations?

Palmer's latest version is vague.

Thanks in advance.

[BigLakeBob]

As far as the heads, the 16700-56 and 16701-56 appears to be correct. First thing to ask is, do the heads have outside oil feed ports and 2nd is, what does the cast in date code say. It should be on the head under the valve cover area not far from the 16700 #'s.

[Tom Wilcock]

On my 1962 heads the part numbers are on the top and the fins on top under the pans are different than the earlier ones with the numbers on the bottom. Not sure when the change was made.
Tom

[vph-d]

I'm pretty sure F & R on the barrels means they are aftermarket. My 65 has barrel date codes on the front base of the rear barrel, and on the rear base of the front barrel.
vph-d

[Speeding Big Twin]

I have a '65 basket case. They said it's almost all there. Well, to a degree they were right.

I am doing a total restoration and the heads, say 16700-56 front and 16701-56 rear. Well, they may work but they are not right.

The jugs are in question as well, One has a F and the other a R. So................

Does anyone have a picture of what the correct ones look like? A picture showing me what the casting numbers should look like for the heads and jugs as well as the locations?

Palmer's latest version is vague.

Thanks in advance.

I posted a few photos below just as examples but if you’re doing a total restoration I imagine you’ll be looking for DCs that correspond with your engine serial number (SN)? And as far as the SN is concerned, have you had it checked for authenticity? For example does it comply with the 60–69 E-O code? Also the factory used at least three types of ‘65’ in the SN.

I have Palmer’s 37–64 FE and 37–64 SE. I don’t have the latest edition (36–65) but I do have some pages from it that were sent to me. What have you found in the latest edition that is vague?


Casting numbers 16700-56 and 16701-56 were used for a long time. As Bob said, do the heads have outside oil feed ports and what does the DC say? Here’s a front head for example. Hard to read the DC in this photo but other photos I have show it to be 4-64 indicating the head was cast in April 1964. Near the DC is a lone E which is found in one position or another on a lot of Panhead heads. Lone K above the casting number.






Next is a rear head with 5-64 indicating it was cast in May 1964. Again notice a lone E and near the top of the photo is a lone J.







Another post to follow.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

Regarding your cylinders, I agree the markings F and R indicate aftermarket (AM).

Authentic H-D Pan cylinders were produced by Motor Castings Company and for mid-63 models thru 65 models the cylinders had an MCC logo on the left side at the base. The front cylinder below appears authentic but some AM companies are reproducing this logo on their cylinders. I don’t know if it’s happened on fake cylinders for Panheads yet but we’ve seen it on fake cylinders for Knuckleheads.

Also on this cylinder notice the relief for the top fin and the SIZE of the other relief I highlighted.







H 27-4 may have been used more than once for Panhead front cylinders but in this instance it indicates casting on August 27, 1964.







Notice no hole for feed oil. (But sometimes people drill a feed hole so one of these later cylinders can be used with earlier heads etc.)






Another post to follow.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

J 8-4 is upside down and it may have been used more than once for Panhead rear cylinders but in this instance it indicates casting on September 8, 1964. (MCC skipped the letter I in cast-iron DCs.)







MCC logo on left side. Also notice the slope at the back of the base and on part of the left side.







Notice no hole for feed oil.
Eric

[Chips Place]

Speeding thanks for the great pictures. My head appear to be correct but definitely not the jugs. Mine are after market and they do have that extra oil hole, which rom my understanding the '65's should not have it. So the search will continue.

I am in FL at the moment and was thinking of going home but I think I will stay for Bike Week and check out the swap meet. Maybe I might get lucky. Though I don't have a pair of calipers with me, so I will have to see what is there.

About the heads, what does the E and K represent? Maybe just manufacture codes?

Thanks again.

[Speeding Big Twin]

You're welcome. I don't know for certain what that lone E indicates. I've seen it underneath some, not all, Panhead heads for 1948-56/57 models and on top of some, not all, Panhead heads for 1961-65 models. It may indicate Eck Industries but I'm not sure yet. In 2022 I was in email contact with Tyler Eck from Eck Industries but the only casting hallmarks he confirmed were two types of circle E on Panhead crankcases.

<sub>I don’t know what the letters K and J represent. According to Palmer’s 37–64 SE they are part of the casting numbers but I see no evidence whatsoever to support that opinion. I’ve seen the letters A and B added to the end of an aluminium casting number to indicate a revision on pieces such as crankcases but those heads have J and K and they aren’t at the end. The J in particular is a long way from the casting number. And it seems Palmer missed rear heads that have the letter D as per the next photo which is of a rear head cast in November 1960. And I’ve also seen D in that position on rear heads cast in January and May 1961. In his 37–64 editions Palmer doesn’t mention this D.







Getting back to cylinders there’s another thing to check. First cylinder below was cast on August 28, 1962 and notice not much material between this bolt hole and the outer edge.







But a cylinder cast on February 22, 1962 had more material there.</sub>








I used those two cylinders because they demonstrate the difference clearly but photos I have of other cylinders suggest the change may have happened after March but before late-July. Why the change? I do not know but it occurred only with front cylinders, not rear cylinders.
Eric

[Tom Wilcock]

I believe there could be many slight variations depending how the raw casting was mounted in the fixture to be machined.
Tom

[Speeding Big Twin]

I believe there could be many slight variations depending how the raw casting was mounted in the fixture to be machined.
Tom

Are you saying the variation is in the machining? Because to me it looks more like a variation in the casting.

And are you suggesting the difference is not a reliable way of telling one certain cylinder from another?
Eric

[Tom Wilcock]

I am saying there could be a variation in the castings and also if each casting was not set in the machining fixture the same, then the relation of the finished machining to the casting edges would vary. The machining itself would not vary.
Tom

[Speeding Big Twin]

I am saying there could be a variation in the castings and also if each casting was not set in the machining fixture the same, then the relation of the finished machining to the casting edges would vary. The machining itself would not vary.
Tom

I agree there is a variation in the casting and that is what I indicated earlier.

To me those two cylinders look like they were set in the machining fixture the same way and I can’t see how that would not happen. But you’re suggesting they were not set the same way so I imagine you can prove your opinion by using those two photos?

And again I ask if you are suggesting the difference I highlighted is not a reliable way of telling one certain cylinder from another?
Eric

[Tom Wilcock]

I have no idea what Harley did when these cylinders were made. They probably made many ongoing changes in the production of parts with no documentation. If raw castings were measured with micrometers probably no two would be identical.
Tom

[Speeding Big Twin]

I have no idea what Harley did when these cylinders were made.

I fear you have contradicted yourself because now you admit you have 'no idea'.
Eric