Seized engine '50 Panhead

[PaulCDF]

Early on "generator lock-up" was suggested; did you pull your generator?

[loch]

Hey Rich, After I published the pics and my description of the rear head I read a bunch of stuff online about solid and hydraulic lifters. The jury is still out regarding the which is better. It just seems to me that if you're going to push solid lifters in you should have the correct rockers. But retrospectively it doesn't seem like it create any issues if you have oil coming out the rocker arm port to solid lifter mating surface. The oil would just run down the inside of the lifter cover, or get squeezed and squirt into the inside of the valve cover.

I also noticed the carbon. I expected it to look this bad because the spark plugs were always getting fouled with carbon buildup. Always. So I changed to a hotter plug - same thing. The cycle would run like a champ for a few days and then back to the hard starting and inconsistent power.

Does it make sense the carbon results from too rich a mixture? The carbon on the plugs was never wet. Always dry. Considering the massive air leaks in both manifold connections and the leaks in the nipple-to-head mating, I have to conclude that I was increasing the fuel input to the cylinder to get it running. Looking at the carbon all over the exhaust valve, and rocker I'd say carbon build was probably a factor in what happened. I don't know. Thinking aloud here.

Generator lock-up? I have not pulled the generator. What would I be looking for?

[T. Cotten]

I believe, Loch,...

All Pan rockers were for hydraulics.

Converting to the later design of hydraulics would require later tappet blocks and drilling the cases.
Solid replacements work fine if they use steel pushrods.
(Aluminum gotta be pretty tight.)

Vacuum leaks make it run rich because it won't run any other way.

....Cotten
PS: The rocker blocks with oil holes on top were intakes. Your "intake" rocker arm is the early peened plug style, whereas the other is the later with a welded gallery.

[PaulCDF]

Check the generator drive gear that all is good there and that the generator unit moves freely,
With generator off see how your engine rotates. Curious that with the heads off you found it initially
"started moving with some effort" then easily.

[loch]

What's a welded gallery?

T, Good information about the pushrods, mine are aluminum. I figured the pistons were going to look pretty bad, black with carbon, just because the plugs kept fouling. The pressure tests said it all.


Paul, the initial thought after your generator comment was that the pistons started to move after the heads were off. Some retrospective thoughts; the pistons did not move immediately or because the heads were removed. Post hoc ergo propter hoc test fails here.

I suppose I could put a multimeter on the generator, cycle the kicker to see if any current is produced. But I think it might better to try the gen test I read about. Bench testing the generator just with a battery to see if the current will cause the generator to spin. I'm not leaving any stone unturned so I will test the generator if for no other reason than the satisfaction of knowing it functions correctly.

After the initial seize I pulled the plugs to reduce the pressure in the cylinders and they remained seized. When the pistons began moving it only took a few strokes on the kicker for it to cycle normally again. I read a procedure to test the generator using the battery, essentially reversing the flow and making the generator act like a motor - as method of testing its functionality.

As it is now, I know the nipples need to be reseated or replaced. Not sure which at this point. But either way, this will probably require machining or at least the use of a press. So I'll need to find someone capable.

[joe fxs fxr]

Is it possible one valve was stuck and then you freed it? It would keep the cam from moving and might feel like a seized piston. Just a wild ass guess.

[loch]

Exactly Joe, I've thought about that as well. I still need to inspect the front head. Won't get to it until this weekend.

I made some edits to the previous post regarding where I am now.

[T. Cotten]

What's a welded gallery?...

The rocker is drilled for oiling, Loch,

But sealed on the end with a weld:

RKRDIMPL.jpg

(When the seats get machined too deep, the weld can hit some pan covers and put a dent in them, and confound adjustment as well.)

Fat aluminum pushrods tend to rub inside of their covers, and they do not expand with heat the same as the cylinders. Adjusted 'normally', they get noisy and loose; I tightened them to where it took a rag on your fingers to turn them, (as tight as possible without losing compression), or they would be sloppy when the motor warmed up.

.....Cotten

[loch]

A preliminary cleaning to inspect the top of the combustion chamber revealed some pitting. I'm not sure if this a concern or not. Especially the long crack on the edge of what I assume is the cylinder mating surface of the front cylinder head - I mislabeled these pictures, the first one is the front cylinder. My first thought is that the top of the cylinder is not a contact surface, except where the valve seats are of course. And if none of this is concerning then there is the matter of fixing the nipple leaks - installing new nipples. Which according to T. Cotten's Virtual Indian post,

http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html

this is not an easy task. But with the limited number of shops capable of doing this I have two choices, ship it out or do it myself.

One of the nipples is loose, I can move it by hand. A small amount, but nevertheless, it does wiggle.

Looking for some thoughts on the way ahead.


RearHeadInside.jpg


FrontHeadInside.jpg

[BigLakeBob]

It looks to me like someone has done quite a bit of peening inside the combustion chamber, possibly to hold hardened seats in. Definitely check seats and valve seating since you have it apart.

[loch]

Thanks Bob!

[T. Cotten]

It looks to me like someone has done quite a bit of peening inside the combustion chamber, possibly to hold hardened seats in. Definitely check seats and valve seating since you have it apart.

That don't look 'on purpose', BLB,..

"Clinching" seats doesn't crater the whole chamber.

Once upon a time, something 'came from together' in there. Or maybe just a screw down the carb.

I had a valve head come off and do that, but much, much worse. Piston didn't like it either.

S&SPIST.jpg

....Cotten
PS: You are right, BLB,.. Those seats might be replaced. Perhaps after the damage!

[knucklehead 61]

My guess to the seizing issue is that you soft seized the pistons to the cylinders due to the intake leaks causing it to run very lean & hot. I have done this a few times on one of my VL's.
The nipples need to have some sealant on the threads where they screw into the heads, prior to drilling & riveting in place. this is easy to do at home if you machine up a plug to act as a rivet buck.
Colony sells the nipple & rivet kits.
Additionally, i suggest using EZ Turn lubricant smeared on the intake manifold seals & threads. It will never leak again.

[T. Cotten]

EZ Turn lubricant looks too good to be true, Knucklehead61!

(I wonder how long it would survive on a carb throttleshaft?)

Since it doesn't harden, what keeps the pulsing of the intake from sucking it out of a leak?

Does anyone know if the MOCO ever used a sealer?

....Cotten
PS: Beware of some Colony productions Folks,..
Where the ID was over-chamfered, and their huge dowels are a really bad idea!

[otis71]

Just a word of advice for your leaking nipples; check the rivets for leaks also. I had to turn oversized ones for my ULH. Been there but I don’t envy your leaky nipple problems.