knuckle head oil control

[p aiello]

I just put my knuckle back together after sending my heads out due to oil leaks the shop that did the heads will remain namesless but all they do is old harleys anyway when i picked up the heads the first thing the mechanic said was i don't guarante they won't leak much to my suprise because that was the problem i was trying to fix, the guy said they all leak and you can't stop them ,so the heads looked very clean all new valves,shafts and seals so i put it back together and sure enough they leak worst then before but the bike runs great i was reading in an old easyrider tech tips & tricks vol 1 about knucklehead oil control where you mark the rocker arm shafts to the alluminum hsg then you turn the shaft to get more or less oil into the heads has anybody tried this method ,and when they put the heads together is'nt there a certain way the shafts have to be aligned. they seem to be leaking from all different places under the pans and where the shafts go into the rocker boxes so it could be to much oil in theare all the lines are cleared out.I've always used hd60w oil i've had the bike going on 20 years now any help.

[k.perry]

Send them to Olsen. He sounds like he knows what he's doing. The bottom of the cans need to be flat and unpainted. The area on the head where the cans sits should be un-painted. Some OE cans have tiny cracks around the edge of the guide hole from repeated installations. Elkins uses asbestos gaskets with a very thin film of Permatex on the head and can bottom and on each side of the gasket and between the two gaskets stacked under the intake can (lower cover). Some people use James® (heat melt) black silicone coated gaskets under the cans, even two of them stacked under the intake cans. I don't know what V-Twin uses. Cometic now makes these lower cover gaskets. Whoever rebuilds your heads.....make them teach you something. Find a mechanic that will forensically pull your heads apart and list everything that was wrong. Someone once wrote something like, "we retain about 20% of the information someone else tells us and about 90% of what we tell somone else". Mechanics that tell you what they did to your motor are re-enforcing their own knowledge. Ask questions when you can.

[T. Cotten]

Knuckles leak at the tins for only two really significant reasons beyond the manual's warning about air ****ing at the pushrod covers.

The worst case scenario is when the cups have cracks adjacent to the drainline's silver-soldering. If this was not attended to, your shop is indeed at fault. And their inadequate attention has probably caused the seats to be sunk even deeper by a valve job that will have to come apart in order to be fixed. If so, their lack of professionalism might have cost you hundreds of dollars beyond the tab you have already paid. You may even need seat replacement because of this.

The best case scenario is when you are merely pumping too much oil to the heads. Pre-war models are regulated by the position of the rockerarms, and sometimes can be re-adjusted without diassembly. Post-war models are designed to be wide open, and regulated by the governor on the pump. (Those of you who think a modern pump is a benefit will have spent your money twice!)

The easiest way to set up a knuck is to allow for maximum flow at the rocker arms, and then regulate it with a metering orifice inserted into the overhead oiline fitting at the cam cover. Carve a brass rivet to be captured under the cpmpression nut, and drill it to a minimum of a .060" hole through it. It is easily pulled and relieved if more flow becomes necessary, which isn't very often.

A last reminder: Read your manual about throwing the throttle shut every so often to drain the heads. Modern highways make you ride in a manner that the machines were not expected to endure.

Good luck!

[Carl N. Olsen]

Cotton is on the right track by saying the tins are cracked, but it could be the lines are plugged or rubbed thru, top and bottom tins not matched, tins not centered in the boxes, poor gaskets, wrong sealer, faulty rubber seals, or any of a dozen other things. Only the early open rockers with baby food jars were adjustable, but I have seen these rocker shafts in early closed tin motors up to early 39. It is rare that you would have them because they have mostly been retrofitted with the full flow shafts. I reduce my overhead oiling by tapping the inside of the cam cover fitting, screwing an allen set screw in, then drilling a smaller hole through the screw. It sounds like the shop mechanic did not know his early motors as well as he should have. If you have more question give me a call at 605-225-5702 as I can talk faster than I type.
Carl N. Olsen
Carl's Cycle Supply

[k.perry]

I like the idea of drilling out a clutch hub liner rivet to .060" and dropping it into the camcover nipple (m.i.p. [male international pipe thread] flared adaptor) better than drilling a hole in a hardened Allen head set-screw. The flared end of the tube that sits on top of the rivet you drilled will compress the rivet into the adaptor hole real nice. You want to see some real nice work on Knuckle arms, check out http://www.hydra-glide.net >Pictures> Misc. in a full screen j-peg you can see how V-Twin made the oiling spiral end right at the oil feed hole to the rocker arm. How much work was getting these rocker arms out to the building public?
I just tried to use a clutch hub rivet. The shank is hollow, but only 3/32nd hollow. Won't work. The rivet head is too wide for the F.I.P. (female international pipe) cap nut to screw on securely and not leak. S&S suggested filling the M.I.P adaptor with solder and drilling an .060" hole through the center. Let's run this into the ground. Anyone else have a way to make an orffice?
Next topic will be what are the clearances allowed for intake and exhaust valve guide to valve stem? Elkins sets his valves up "right at about .004" clearance". V-Twin allows (the one set I know about) as tight as .002", but they use Serdi valve machines that "insures correct valve stem to seat alignment". Can they set their heads up with clearances as tight as .002" on a Knuckle and not have the motor sieze? Do you score the I.D. of the guide when you remove a valve for inspection even if the tip is de-burred? It is important to draw a consensus or valve stem/ guide clearances for 61 & 74" + or - 0.0005" (using Rowe® cast iron guides); so that everyone will know and agree on tolerances based on a new Knuckle industry standard, using materials available today (not n.o.s), while not exceeding equipment limitations or expectations.

[p aiello]

T.Cotten
thanks for the tip it sound like a good idea i will try it,
i spoke to the shop that did the job and told him about your idea he also agreed it's worth a shot, he also asked me if i've ever had the tappets out he said something about some bad tappets that were on the market a few years back that had a large drain hole and the oil wasn't returning
fast enough but that's not the case being i've had the bike for 20 yrs and never replaced the tappets ,but anyway thanks again for the tip and i'l let you now how i make out.

pat

[T. Cotten]

Pat!

If you are leaking under the spring cups,... you better look your mechanic in the eye and tell him you are not satisfied. Since your valve job depended upon the placement of the cups, the seats will have to be sunk even further after they are repaired. That's tragic.

And twenty years on a tappet itself isn't such a big deal,.. but twenty years on a 'modern' tappet roller can be a lit fuse!

Originals had no needles in them, and would run forever, although noisy and a performance drain.
Modern needle rollers should be replaced every 25000 miles on a motor without hydraulics to cushion them (and only another 5 thousand for those!). The weakest part of any motor is the smallest part, and those little needles can blow your cases in a heartbeat if they fatique and fracture.

Indexing of the rockershafts, as your man described, was the Factory norm for the early ones. It's a pain in the booty, so setting them up wide open and then restricting them with an orifice is much easier.
After '40 or so (I ferget exactly when without the book in front of me), they were made to flow wide open no matter how you rotated them. If you have a later model, then your serviceperson can't even read the manual. (If he said they ALL leak,... then you should demand your satisfaction as a refund. Would you want your doctor to assert that everybody dies anyway?)

I'll echo Mr. Perry and suggest that any serious motorwork should be sent to Mr. Olsen, if his schedule can accomodate it.

Good luck!

[k.perry]

I wouldn't tear into your mechanic that did your heads. Look at it this way...he did the best he could and he didn't know enough to do them any better. Go learn exactly what was wrong with your heads by someone that does Knuckles regularly. That's what I like about Stett...he drags out the BIG magnifying glass. I think I know something...and then he takes it several layers deeper. Go back to your first mechanic and tell him what was wrong with the heads after they are finished. Every owner of a Knuckle gets the opportunity to do it wrong once (my Pan motor "cacked" early) and I wanted to sue Lakeside, Bill that built it, but if he hadn't built a bomb, then I would have never crossed paths with Stett, so Bill did me a favor. Now I stay "in the boat", and I have a mechanic that I can relate to.

[p aiello]

last night i installed the orfice in the overhead oil line and i cleand any oil off the heads and i ran the bike in the garage just to get it hot and listend to the motor and it wasn't no louder with the ristricted oil to the head i was a little nervous .
now i'm waiting for a break in the weather so i can go for a good ride and check it out if it's not that bad i'll live with it thru the summer the last couple of years it's been leaking so i'm used to it i'll still ride it just stay local and redo the job in the winter .i have 4 other bikes i can ride 4 harley's 1 indian.
anyway thanks for all the help .
i've delt with this shop for at least 15 years so i can tell him i'll wait till the winter and send him the heads if he say's he can't fix it then i'll call mr. olsen