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Need expert opinion on VIN Knucklehead FL 1946

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  • #16
    And any bike that has been repainted, replated, seat recovered, new tires, new battery, etc. etc. etc. could also be disqualified. Again, the AMCA has no business judging the authenticity of a serial number, except as it applies to the year of the motorcycle. I would be curious what our chief judge has to say about that. If it was a case by case judgment, I can understand that because there are so many variables, and circumstances that can be considered, but a hard fast rule. . . B.S.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

    Comment


    • #17
      What I can't figure out, Folks,..

      ...Is why anyone even wants to play the AMCA judging game?
      Obviously, we can toss out authenticating or documenting a VIN!

      ....Cotten
      AMCA #776
      Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

      Comment


      • #18
        Dear Eric, you'll need to speak to the Chief Judge, but altered engine numbers are an automatic disqualification with AMCA judging. There is an arms race going on between the recasters of crankcases , the suppliers of number stamps, and the AMCA judges and I like to think the AMCA is still just ahead. The money is in the knuckleheads, so this is where we are seeing replica cases and carefully faked numbers. The clue is in the name, we are the Antique Motorcycle Club and not the carefully-fabricated-for-money Club. Reproduction frames for both the 1936 and up Big Twins and the military 45s means, given the identity of the bike goes with the frame number in Europe, that bikes of modern manufacture are trying to be passed off as historic.
        vlheaven@aol.com

        Comment


        • #19
          It was my assumption that the AMCA has allowed the best available reproduction in judging, and that should include engine cases as well. The main reason people are reproducing engine cases is because there is a demand to replace hopelessly damaged, and worn out motor cases. Not only is the AMCA not the police, the AMCA is not in charge of the marketplace.

          Our AMCA judges are smart, and can recognize reproduction. If they spot a reproduction case, there should be a notation, and deduction on the judging sheet. . . . And that's it. . . . An AMCA member has the right to have their motorcycle judged.
          Eric Smith
          AMCA #886

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by exeric View Post
            It was my assumption that the AMCA has allowed the best available reproduction in judging, and that should include engine cases as well. The main reason people are reproducing engine cases is because there is a demand to replace hopelessly damaged, and worn out motor cases. Not only is the AMCA not the police, the AMCA is not in charge of the marketplace.

            Our AMCA judges are smart, and can recognize reproduction. If they spot a reproduction case, there should be a notation, and deduction on the judging sheet. . . . And that's it. . . . An AMCA member has the right to have their motorcycle judged.
            Gosh Eric!

            The AMCA may not be "in charge" of the marketplace, but for other than an authoritative critique to help ascertain the inherent value of their machine... Why else have it judged?

            And face it, if you have to jump around the continent to get your 'awards', getting judged ain't cheap.

            ....Cotten
            AMCA #776
            Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

            Comment


            • #21
              Until the last several years, bikes with altered numbers were not judged. Recently, these bikes were judged, but not scored. I've been told this was done to try to retain the owner's interest in the club. I think many [most?] owners are unaware that their bike has bogus numbers.
              VPH-D

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by exeric View Post
                It was my assumption that the AMCA has allowed the best available reproduction in judging, and that should include engine cases as well. The main reason people are reproducing engine cases is because there is a demand to replace hopelessly damaged, and worn out motor cases. Not only is the AMCA not the police, the AMCA is not in charge of the marketplace.

                Our AMCA judges are smart, and can recognize reproduction. If they spot a reproduction case, there should be a notation, and deduction on the judging sheet. . . . And that's it. . . . An AMCA member has the right to have their motorcycle judged.
                Members do not have the right to have their machine judged. But they do have the right to pay to have their machine judged. A small difference.
                As for reproduction parts the highest quality reproduction part available is allowed on a Restored motorcycle. So if a part is reproduced by more that one source the better one must be used.
                No reproduction parts are allowed on an Un-Restored machine.
                The heart of a restored machine must be original. That means the engine and frame. Why you may ask? If not someone could buy one of Tiawan Tedd's Knucklehead or Panhead kits and get a 100 point machine that is entirely bogus.
                Many people use the AMCA Judging Sheet as a sales tool. For this reason the club won't judge machines with altered numbers. Someone not knowing what they were looking at could pay major money for and entirely bogus machine relying on the AMCA Judging Sheet to assume that it was all original.
                Back in the day of Peter Heintz being Chief judge he would allow altered numbers saying "We are not the police". I questioned this at Davenport after a 1930 VL serial number 36VL1001 with obvious bogus numbers was advanced to the Winners Circle.
                All motorcycles wind up being sold to someone else at some point in time. I just hope no one gets screwed by paying big money for a bogus number machine from the Peter Heintz era.
                Be sure to visit;
                http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/main.php
                Be sure to register at the site so you can see large images.
                Also be sure to visit http://www.caimag.com/forum/

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Chris Haynes View Post
                  Members do not have the right to have their machine judged. But they do have the right to pay to have their machine judged. A small difference.
                  As for reproduction parts the highest quality reproduction part available is allowed on a Restored motorcycle. So if a part is reproduced by more that one source the better one must be used.
                  No reproduction parts are allowed on an Un-Restored machine.
                  The heart of a restored machine must be original. That means the engine and frame. Why you may ask? If not someone could buy one of Tiawan Tedd's Knucklehead or Panhead kits and get a 100 point machine that is entirely bogus.
                  Many people use the AMCA Judging Sheet as a sales tool. For this reason the club won't judge machines with altered numbers. Someone not knowing what they were looking at could pay major money for and entirely bogus machine relying on the AMCA Judging Sheet to assume that it was all original.
                  Back in the day of Peter Heintz being Chief judge he would allow altered numbers saying "We are not the police". I questioned this at Davenport after a 1930 VL serial number 36VL1001 with obvious bogus numbers was advanced to the Winners Circle.
                  All motorcycles wind up being sold to someone else at some point in time. I just hope no one gets screwed by paying big money for a bogus number machine from the Peter Heintz era.
                  So the next logical question for the AMCA is:

                  When does the whole notion of "judging" become obviously "toxic"?

                  I figure about two decades ago, at very least.

                  ....Cotten
                  AMCA #776
                  Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chris Haynes View Post
                    All motorcycles wind up being sold to someone else at some point in time. I just hope no one gets screwed by paying big money for a bogus number machine from the Peter Heintz era.
                    Isn't that why the AMCA makes you sign a judging disclaimer? In other words, the AMCA does not want any culpability if someone gets a lawyer and claims, "The AMCA said it was a genuine knucklehead". I'll bet you credits to navy beans that that there are fake Knuck frames, and motors that have sailed through AMCA judging in the last few years.

                    This whole judging thing turned into a monster many years ago and the AMCA allowed the tail to wag the dog. In the early days of the AMCA, motorcycles were displayed to create interest, and awareness of our motorcycle history. Then some chucklehead thought it would be a good idea to give a trophy to shiniest, chromiest bike. Just like socialism, it was a good idea until humans got involved.

                    This all started because I disagree with my good friend Steve Slocombe, but in no way do I have any anger, or disrespect for his, or anyone else's opinions. It's discussions like this that make our club stronger, and progressive.
                    Eric Smith
                    AMCA #886

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Just a reminder, Folks,..

                      I proposed long ago that the 'judging' system be burned, and the Club enter the Twenty-First Century by rostering machines on-line, so that their History can be recorded (and edited/amended) long into the future.

                      Ah nevermind.


                      ....Cotten
                      Last edited by T. Cotten; 04-06-2016, 06:50 PM.
                      AMCA #776
                      Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Its interesting how a topic that started with a question about a VIN number has turned into a debate about the judging system.


                        Eric.
                        You are correct the AMCA judges are not the police, they do not arrest or prosecute anybody for having a bike with altered or bad numbers. By judging a bike with altered numbers we could be seen to be verifying its identity.

                        For those who are interested in the judging rules and procedures you can find information on this web site in the events section of the start-up page.

                        The rules are clear, Altered identity numbers and reproduction engine cases are not allowed. This is something that was debated at great length 5 or more years ago by the judging committee before its inclusion into the judging rules and guidelines.

                        Chris.
                        Your statement regarding reproduction parts is not strictly correct. If you check the rules and guidelines you will see that ACCURATE reproduction parts are acceptable. NOT best available reproduction parts. I know its just a slight difference in the wording but it is important.

                        Pete Reeves. #860

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Congrats, Chris, for having the fortitude to write the 1st two sentences! It seems that the bigger wad of dough one has, the better his chances are of being rewarded with the AMCA blessing. As far as people using a tally sheet as a sales tool, I would say "caveat emptor"....Don't let someone's opinion sway you into buying something you're not sure of...Do your homework before you spend your hard-earned paper route money on what you deem to be an "investment"....Either that, or buy it and enjoy it regardless of whether it's real or not....At the end of the day, you are the judge!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Dear Eric and Tom, I'd say tag along as an apprentice with the judges at your next National Meet and see how the process goes. We spent a lot of time working on the new judging handbook and guidelines, in part because, as Chris pointed out, obviously altered engine numbers were being put through the AMCA judging system. The faking has got better over the years, but don't think that knuckleheads with bad numbers or repro frames will 'sail through' the judging system.

                            Pete Reeves and I now operate as advisers to the UK Vehicles Administration as to whether bikes, mostly Harleys, should be granted historic plates. I'm sure other AMCA members work for State agencies in a similar capacity. In the UK the identity of the bike goes with the frame, and they are more relaxed about replacement engines. We still find recently restored basket case WLA/WLC bikes left here after WW2, sometimes with altered engine numbers, but these can get UK papers if the frame is original. However, we have already seen a knucklehead and a Harley 45 with repro frames which will have to be registered as new bikes and meet the appropriate regulations. It's amazing what people will buy on eBay, import to the UK, and think it will be easy to put on the road.
                            vlheaven@aol.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Sorry Steve!

                              I choose to 'opt out' on a game that destroys more History than it preserves.

                              ....Cotten
                              AMCA #776
                              Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by pete reeves View Post

                                Chris.
                                Your statement regarding reproduction parts is not strictly correct. If you check the rules and guidelines you will see that ACCURATE reproduction parts are acceptable. NOT best available reproduction parts. I know its just a slight difference in the wording but it is important.

                                Pete Reeves. #860
                                There may be more than one accurate repop. But one will undoubtedly be the best. :-)
                                Be sure to visit;
                                http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/main.php
                                Be sure to register at the site so you can see large images.
                                Also be sure to visit http://www.caimag.com/forum/

                                Comment

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