´42 knuckle vin

[enthusiast]

Sorry folks,
I know vin are very often discussed … but I found nothing and need an answer.
So here is my question…
I have the opportunity to buy a ´42 knuckle engine, along with some more stuff…, it looks as a quite good case. Vin seems orginal to me, can´t see or recognize any millings, weldings and rework around the vin boss, correct stamps, but anyhow I am wondering about the vin which is 42FL7XXX, could that be, starting with a 7 as the serial number?
(sorry no pic at the time)
I know there were built only a few ohv in ´42, about 837 E´s and 906 F´s - if I got the correct information from Rick Conners Data book.

So guys every comment from your site are very appreciated.

…really an enthusiast

[vph-d]

Civilian production for 42 supposedly ran to about 1700 machines, so VIN numbers would top out at about 2700 or so. The production data available is known to be an approximate figure.
VPH-D

[46EL]

What do the belly numbers read? If they are 42 and in the 1000 to less than 3000 range then something is even more wrong with the 7000??.
I owned 42EL 19xx years ago and another 42EL Knuckle only two digits higher was also in New England at the same time and came from the same state.
I always wondered if they were both Police Bikes? 46el

[enthusiast]

Thanks, I will try to get some more informations probably the next week. I can not rember the belly numbers, didn't make any note of them.
46EL, so is there any strict correlation between belly numbers and vins? Wich way did the moco award the belly numbers? Do they start separately on each model case, or did they start with every year beginning from where … 0001 … 1000 … ?

[Steve Slocombe]

Now that the knuckle cases are being recast, and the number stamp manufacturers are getting better, I would always take along an expert before parting with any money. The Harley 'black book' shows 1743 overhead valve twins built in the 1942 model year so, with engine numbers starting at 1000, they should not exceed say 3000 even allowing for some gaps. As I understand it, Harley ran the engine and belly numbers in separate series for each engine type such as sidevalve big twin, sidevalve small twin, and overhead valve twin, each time starting at 1000 for the engine and the belly number series. Some early model year bikes might have crankcases which had been matched in the previous year, so you could get a low engine number with a high belly number from the previous year. In each major series, high and low compression models might be interleaved, so for instance 42E1100 could be followed by 42EL1101. General advice is buyer beware, hit the books, and take a friend, as I've seen repro knuck cases in Germany with authentic looking engine numbers stamped. Remember you need TUV inspection to get your bike registered, and the inspectors are getting really good on repro Harley frames and engine cases, and you could lose the whole bike...

[enthusiast]

…now we will see if it works, I tried to attach a pic, hopefully it works.

Thanks Steve. What you wrote is just what and how I understand from reading and researching in the sources I know, specially for sure BP book. So I am glad to hear it - but would be much more glad if I could hear "top vin"…
I know these recast cases and saw them in reality, also had some talks with the manufacturer, really pretty good authentic looking, but if you look very closely you will recognize that the surface in my opinion is a litte more smoothy than originals … and yes know I get the idea to check out the casting tag, as this is always the same number in the recast cases…
And the german TUV, yes this seems to be a holy ghost for a lot of wrenchers (even in forgein countries - I am wondering), as these guys there should to be engeneers (like myself by the way) - but they work like on an agency - and I am pretty sure they work there because none of them I know (since decades of challenging them) would be able to work in economy, producing benefit, so thats the reason they work there, they are not wanted (yes not needed) in economy, no self thinking about what they should have learned, just saying and doing stupid formality not being able to do things in own responsibility … well as everywhere the formalities of agencies are no secret you just have to know them …

Steve, sadly I didn't see you this weekend at the amca in Geldrop. I planned to be there with my ´39el, but the weather here was too horrible, and I talked to Mark (UL) form netherland - you know him - and he told me about the bad wether even there and the prognose for the weekend … so I stayed here for a family weekend

42 knuck 007.jpg

[Sargehere]

First impression: it's a good fake. just looks too new. The bottoms of the channels stamped in the metal doesn't shine after 70+ years. Probably a good enuf fake to pass most government motor vehicle inspectors, but no 42 Knuckle was numbered in the 7000's. It's all the new-cast cases and latest in counterfeit stamps can produce.

Look around here: http://vintageamericanmotorcycles.co...20216.jpg.html

[HD48FL]

but no 42 Knuckle was numbered in the 7000's.

I understand when people stamp cases for titles they have (even though it's wrong), but in this case, whoever put those numbers on that case did not have a title. Reminds me of the '49 "FLH" thread on another board: http://www.caimag.com/forum/showthre...mbers-!-49-FLH

[Robert Luland]

Welcome to the real world kid. If there's a buck to be made and a sucker to be had. Someone will come out of the woodwork. Bob L

[sirhrmechanic]

Not sure I can blame whomever stamped the case. Really, he did the world a favor by putting on a number that is so outside the realm of 'real' numbers that it can't be passed off as real... as long as the buyer is careful and an unscrupulous (later) seller is not persuasive enough to represent it as real. And as always, Caveats and Emptors apply.

The OP here did his due diligence and knows that the case is a repro. That said, it still has value and can be used to build a bike... around a repro case. Again, as long as bike/motor is not represented as real, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem happens when the first owner says "It's a repro bike I built," the second owner says "I got this bike from a guy and it has a lot of original parts on it," the third owner says "I bought it from a guy who says it's original..." and eventually it's an original paint 1942 Knucklehead that Patton's nephew owned his whole life and only rode to Church on odd Sundays. We all know how the stories 'evolve.'

In this case, the OP was smart... wary... asked the right questions. And got answers to inform his decision from experts at the "right" Web site -- AMCA. And he appears to be running away from this case or, if he buys it, at least he knows what he is getting (again, thanks to the original stampey guy.)

It's when someone stamps a number in the original serial number range... with exact reproduction stamps... using the original spacing... and does it to deceive... that reproduction degenerates into forgery. And it is happening all the time in the high-end car world. In the last few years, plenty of cars documented as 'destroyed in fires... crushed... crashed in LeMans and turned into aluminum ribbons... parted out..." are miraculously turning up in barns in Minsk and Dar Es Salaam. They are generally accompanied by amazing stories involving the French Resistance, the CIA and Eva Braun. And they all come with remarkably new-looking chassis rails and crankcases which look remarkably like the ones listed in catalogs by reproduction parts manufacturers. With a big enough credit limit on my card, I can order a complete 3L Bentley -- every part -- and have it delivered in a week. Want to bet it could become a lost LeMans racer with some easily-printed paperwork and a good story?

Case in point, look at the cars destroyed in the Los Angeles Motor Show fire of, I think, 1928. Some amazing iron burned to crispy critters when the building went up. And yet... those cars are suddenly 'appearing' at Pebble Beach and Auction houses all fresh and new with the numbers to "prove" their authenticity.

It's bad enough when it's a $40K Knuck. Make it a $10 million European classic... and suddenly there are some real incentives (and ROI) in forgery.

Interesting thread... I learned a lot about EL's! It also gets me asking whether AMCA has a 'database' or a "forgery finder" on its Web site or should consider creating such a tool? Seems to me that with all the knowledge we have on the subject, it would not be a difficult project to create a Forum section or a Web site tool that shows people how to distinguish the real from the Ersatz without relying on Google Fu and then having to sort through the 10,845,243,211 potentially misleading results that pop up. The knowledge of guys like Steve and Bob L. and Chris, CO, Cottan (will I ever spell that right?)... et al is worth far more than the garbage that one finds from NintendoRider123 on some blog. The AMCA should be ground zero for this kind of stuff. Perhaps a good club project to capture this while we still can?

Just my two percent of a dollar... YMMV, etc. Again, thanks all for an interesting thread.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[rdillon]

Not to hijack, but a question. If you have a legit title and a bad case is it wrong to buy an aftermarket case and have it stamped with your good number?

[Rubone]

Randy,
That question covers a broad spectrum. If the case has factory numbers but is broken, beyond repair, etc, it is a legitimate replacement. If the case has a poorly stamped number job and a title was acquired by tricking some DMV employee into issuing it, or was acquired through a title mill, then no, as it is likely just furthering felonious intent. And many scenarios in between those.

[camsaure]

When it rains it pours. There is another Knucklehead just listed on ebay with bogus numbers.

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Folks:

A bike has come to my attention and I'm trying to help a potential buyer ensure he isn't getting a pig in a poke.... It's been 'lightly' chopped.... wrong over-long forks. But that seems about it. Lots of modern bits, late trans, etc. But the core of the bike appears to be a '47 FL with an uncut frame and a relatively unmolested engine. The number is 47FL1009. If I am correct, that makes it a VERY early 47?

Any input folks? Bike is a barn find. I have pictures but can't post yet. I am working on permission. It is grotty, but there. Bad attempt to make it all choppery but it could be recommissioned to run as is (real period bobber/chopper) or restored. Not sure what the prospective owner wants to do. So far, he is trying to buy it but doesn't want a fake case set. IMHO, the thing has sat 30 years. Noone was faking cases back then except to fool police. And this just doesn't look like that. I am trying to get a close-up of the Case number... I can't tell what the stampings look like.

Pardon rambling. I haven't had coffee yet.

Thanks,

Sirhr

[Sargehere]

Harley numbers started at one-thousand in those days, so it's pretty early. Comes to mind that I'd inquire of Harley-author Herbert Wagner. I know that he's accessed Wisconsin registration records, and the very low-numbered new bikes often stayed close to the Milwaukee Brickpile. It may reveal that bike's first owner.
A photo is probably all you need to get an avalanche of opinions on the validity of the number.